Just wondering, and I hope this doesn't constitute synth talk, we have already a very simple, kitchen friendly, noxious chemical avoiding tek for the zinc reduction N-Oxide to Freebase. I was just wondering, might there be any other conversion teks as simple as this? Even if only hypothetical ones? It's just that once again, I'm finding myself mystified that between all the vitamins, proteins, essential oils, cleaners, and hardware store supplies we have available (never mind the unwatched / relatively safe other things one can find online), the zinc reduction tek is the only safe/kitchen friendly conversion tek any of us have discovered.

By the way, does anyone know whatever happened to 69Ron? I see his last post was around the time I joined... It seems that not only was his zinc reduction spot on, but his LSH conversion theory has been confirmed as well (so long as it's relatively pure acetylehyde involved, 24 hours are allowed, things are kept freezing cold and in the dark, it takes place in a suspension of EtOH, and then is ingested immediately).

I'm sorry if I've done a few posts along these lines lately, I just think it might be cool if we had a few more conversion teks that were Nexus appropriate/approved.

What about ascorbic acid or vitamin C? Just a thought...

ascorbic won't reduce it the way a metal catalyst would, but it will donate protons and form an ascorbate salt. then if you want the free base, you'd have to basify it again, which would be counterintuitive to adding the ascorbic acid in the first place.

I'm not convinced zinc reduces the oxide. aluminum amalgum or lithium metal would do it

I think this is something that should be looked at further. Perhaps someone capable of doing so should run a few experiments to back up claims of Zinc's reduction of oxide.

It is in the Nexus Wiki (at least last time I checked) that zinc will easily convert DMT N-Oxide back into N-N-DMT.

If there is a better way I think analytical tests should be done and the Wiki revised if need be.

After all that's what the Nexus is all about right?
Learning,sharing and expanding?

I don't think theres any reason to doubt zinc works as a method to reduce oxides of tryptamines to their parent compounds. I mean trout discusses it and says it works, so i tend to agree, based on the evidence he provided, and the reports from people going off that to try it themselves. AFAIK, its totally viable. I plan on trying it myself soon, with elemental zinc powder and hcl on some oxidized dmt that is insoluble in hot heptane.

Anyway, heres the pdf of trouts notes on desmodium, where he discusses the zinc reduction of dmt oxides.

Yes n-oxides reduction with zinc has been described in literature before since long. Zinc is strong enough to reduce harmaline to THH too, as my own tests showed.

but the thing to wonder is if oxidized dmt people think they have is actually dmt n-oxide, or maybe something else?

If what you have IS in fact the oxide, then it is possible that sodium dithionite might do the job. However it is also possible that it might overdo the job and result in the hydrolysis of your amine too. It is inexpensive, OTC and not hazardous to handle so might be worth a try. It is available as the brand name RIT fabric whitener, sold in the same rack as fabric dyes at the supermarket or fabric shop.

Another milder reducer would be stannous chloride but it might be more difficult to get a hold of. If you think you might like to try either, let Sister know and she will see if she can find/write a procedure for you.

If the actual reducing agent is nascent hydrogen (hydrogen before H2 molecules are formed) resulting from the zinc / acid reaction, there should be many alternatives. Iron filings, magnesium, aluminium... the latter two are more powerful reduction agents than zinc anyway.

But the n-oxide (if that's the brown goo that DMT turns into with aging) is just as active, some even prefer it!

So many replies, you guys are the best! But I think you all misunderstood me... I was marveling at how simple and amazing the zinc redox (is that right, redox?) is... It works so well... SWIM was telling me SWIM tried it on an STB pull and that all the yellow oils vanished.

So... What I was asking here, is whether it is conceivable that we could have a tek as equally simple for doing other things than ridding us of N-oxides? For example, simple substitutions or something? Adding an acetyl group? A hydroxy group? A methoxy group? Brominizing it... Etc. Etc. The 69Ron zinc reduction is an amazing and simple way of converting DMT-N-Oxide to DMT, might there be similarly easy ways of converting DMT to one of it's allies?

For example, the Udenfriend System, which maybe Benzyme could tell us more about, would seem to suggest we could hydoxylate DMT (yielding both Psilocin and Bufotenin) by simply mixing it up in a buffer with ferrous iron, EDTA, and Vitamin C (all safe, OTC, dietary supplements).

I'd be afraid to use aluminum amalgum or any amalgum in particular on a tryptamine.

Aside from dithionate, there's also sodium cyanoborohydride which I have seen used in similar oxygen ripping reactions. Though that's a pretty elusive reagent. There are other metals that can be used such as iron and aluminum. My best friend electrolysis might not be the best bet due to side-products(polymerization, pyrole opening, etc) but I have read some interesting things about electrolytic hydrogenation with Ni and Fe electrodes .

I have heard of using activated Copper Sulfate(IIRC) with I believe ascorbic acid for some mild redox reactions. The efficacy of which I can not vouch for.

There is also sulfurous acid(SO2 solvated in water) which is reported to suite this task.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/30132815/Amine-Oxides

More than one way to skin a cat here, question is who actually has a sample of dmt-n-oxide, how was it prepared, and are they willing/able to actually test they're results?

hey what about magnesium powder? i've a ton of it..should it work? it should be more reactive than zinc since it is in the second group..what do you think? anyone has tried that yet?

The thing with zinc is, it's used dissolving in hydrochloric acid - hydrogen is thereby produced in an active form which does the job of removing the oxide. Dissolving magnesium might work but there is the possibility that it may evolve hydrogen much more quickly. This could well cause problems with foaming, etc.

sodium Cyanoborohydride was mentioned, but that is a very watched chemical, A similar unwatched reducing agent is Sodium Borohydride, both are used in M..D--M,,A synth(and others) so i wouldnt jump on that route to quick

Please no synth discussion when dealing with dangerous or watched chems

According to Wikipedia, the U.S. Penny has been composed of a 99% zinc core with 2.5% copper plating since 1983. It seems cheap, as 1 cent is the value of 2.5g of 97.5% zinc. Simply file the penny down to a powder, then weigh it out.

I don't know if the copper contamination is sufficient to cause problems with oxide reduction, but there could possibly be a chloride or hydroxide of copper that may transfer to a nonpolar solvent...can't think of why this would happen. Perhaps the copper inhibits the reduction potential of the zinc, perhaps by drawing electrons?

Also, grinding up pennies is illegal, so maybe that would present a problem.

Copper might actually help a bit by forming an electrochemical couple. Zinc/copper couples are sometimes used for other reductions.

The rate of dissolution can be controlled with temperature to some extent, having an ice water bath on hand would probably remedy the situation. Also its rate of dissolution will depend upon how finely ground it is, more surface area = increased rate of reation