amazingo wroye: ..my point is that these kinds of tryptamine/harmala experiences are not simply and predictably dosage dependent..the quality of the experience is not related to the amount of harmine/dmt ingested..
some people, like jamie, get effects from 10grams that others would need 50..i'm more sensitive like jamie, particularly after repeated exposure..even the same amount of DMT on it's own will not always go the same 'distance'..but even if one argues it does, then quantity is not the same as quality
if i smoke 20mg dmt and it shows me a plant which says i should care for it, and then my friend smokes a similar 20mg and says 'oh, not much..mild CEVs, dmt geometrics..', well that's just how it goes..
if we could be totally empirical about mental experiences, well psychology would have come a lot further by now..

i am trying to present 2 views at once here (if you can handle that)

..that the traditional water brew is a unique and complex thing, which has the potential do things harmine/dmt alone may not..it seems often preferred by a certain kind of person who is subjectively more focused on 'connection' with plants..this focus seems to be on a complex set of rituals and beliefs, with a kind of 'faith' in both traditions and nature..though people with no spiritual beliefs may like it's therapeutic effects
..pure extracts are, as i said, more controllable and reliable in action, hence probably more suit the typical modern situation..some people are concerned with simply achieving a certain degree of influence of a substance..like you say, the molecule is seen as a tool to aid the individual..

i accept both perspectives..

IMO the spirit is in both, depending on your personal perspective..

Hey jamie
Good question and I hope acceptable answer: the "getting a vehicle to a destination" paradigm is encompassing all of the aya phenomenon in my opinion. There is just no need for "extra" spirits attached to molecules to make the theory more solid.
Still IMO, the spirits are not attached to anything, just like our own spirit is traveling without body.

The feeling of getting to the same place perceived differently when using different molecules make me feel that it is not something related to the molecule itself. It is of course just my opinion and I am maybe completely wrong.

However, I do feel that all living beings have souls and are respectable, I love them as much or even more then I love some humans. I just think that the extracted magic potion is not their spirit per se.
I you extract my DMT from my body and vaporize it, I don't think it will be MY soul guiding you, you'll just use my fuel for YOUR vehicle

Peace.

It is true that we are far x28 more complex then any vehicle! But if a theory does not apply to something as simple as that, it shouldn't be applied to anything more complex.

amazingo wrote: ..i think a little bit of your 'spirit' would be there as the molecules have shared space/time co-ordinates with your body for a while..but, if this were true, probably not everyone would perceive that..if they asked where the spice came from they might, and may become concerned at what was done to you amazingo..

peace to you also..

Sorry, I forgot the first one, can you repeat please?

.
.
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Just kidding, relax friend

It is your experience and I respect it, you perceive it your way and that is okay for me. I am also very sensitive to psychedelics, but talking about you and your friend taking same quantity is not relevant as your "vehicle" obviously needs less.

I also sometimes can see variations in quality with same quantity, but it is really minimal if coming from same batch. I never had anything really that different from same quantity. That is of course just me.

My point is you can go ahead and ask a car how it feels when you give it gas from Iran vs gas from texas, but dont expect a response. Likewise you can give one person LSD and another person mescaline and from the perspective of an outside observer they might both exhibit similar behaviour while subjectivly having 2 different experiences..however subtle or extreme those differences may be..you will never know unless you ask them and have them respond.

None of this should ever be used to say ayahuasca can get you there but pharma can not..they both can and do..but that is not my point.

..i respect your views too amazingo..
i generally try to stay rational/scientific/objective in my nexus posts, but sometimes my subjective views are drawn out, as i feel compelled to share what has (for me) often given me the strength or faith to stay on this plant entheogen path..

whatever the absolute ultimate truth, i think objectifying things as entities, spirits etc. can lead to a more 'love-based' kind of experiences (if it's the right spirit) ..or, the 'object'/totality can be simply reduced to the self..the self-observation of bhuddist meditation, the understanding of the self..

both ways are fine with me..

I don't have to ask, I can see it arrive at same destination using same quantity of different fuel, and that is all that is important regarding a car.

If you take same amount of pure extracted DMT (just for the sake of having something easily measurable) extracted from different plants (fuel), I don't think the quality/intensity (distance) will be different.
At least IME, I don't see huge intensity variations but it can be subjective and definitely not measurable by anyone else then me

to sum up my entire view in this thread I will say this.

I believe that DMT, beta carbolines and other psychedelics like psilocybin are found throughout most of the ecosystems on the planet because one of the roles they play in the global ecosystem is something similar to interspecies pheremones. I think this is how the complex human nervous systems hacks into or links with the planetary mind on a conscious level. We are always imbedded in this network of consciousness that encompasses the whole biosphere but we are not always aware of it.

Synthetic, whole plant brew, extracted..all of these forms can and do link us up to this grid..that does not mean that other secondary alklaoids, terpenes whatever that might be present do not serve to modulate that frequency slightly so that the dialogue is a little bit different.

I also think that this is how humans will evolve. I am not big into life long meditations or anything like that..I think that psychedelics are the fasted and most effective route to take and that any discussion at this point on what type of preperation is better is pointless and this has to be done now and if someone wants to use pharma, than great..if someone wants ayahuasca..than great..just use the tools that Gaia has provided and dont complain about it.

jamie wrote: ..agreed...

I totally get that, at the end, everything is subjective as it springs from individual experiences. I don't know if the real "ultimate truth" really exists, but if it does, we will all probably be surprised when we realize it

..Ayahuasca has more potential medicinal compounds from plants in it than Pharmahuasca..

Ayahuasca is about more than the visions..
as in intestinal parasitic treatment it is probably more effective (more tannins, ant-oxidants etc)

the 'spirit' of the plant is in both forms..


i enjoyed this debate..bring it back on!

I thought I might have something relevant to add.

I have found many times that the different extractions of DMT I have made offer quite different experiences. Using the exact same extraction method can still give different experiences as well. Changes in ambient temperature can alter solubility of certain compounds leading to different mixes. Pulling with naphtha compared to Xylene is very different to me. Then of course there's the whole changa bit. Using different plants changes things, as well. I have found some plants to be very non-vocal, and passive. Other plants (most notably caapi leaf) are very vocal and clear. I think changa affords a very clear comparison to these spirits of the plants, I have done them side by side and seen the differences. This alone shows clearly the effect of pure over raw plants. Pure crystal seems lacking to me after using changa.

I know this thread was about aya, but the nature of vaping spice seems to be valid to the argument.

One of the interesting things I noticed about this thread is the debate over the language. The changes in perceived spirits can be discussed scientifically (as in, different compounds change the workings of the brain and cause a different pattern of function) or spiritually (different parts of the plant work to bring out more spirit involvement).

In the end it's all about the mind anyway. How does one perceive the experience? Perhaps simply believing that a traditional brew is more spiritual will make it more spiritual for the drinker. This could be the placebo effect, or perhaps that state of mind opens the person more easily to the spirits present. It's all so confusing, as there are so many possible explanations, but it sure is entertaining to try to figure out! Often, though, I find that many explanations are saying the same thing, just in different words.

My subjective experience is this:
Full spectrum extractions offer a more full experience, but it all depends on the intentions for the experience as to how one should proceed.

Having only had experienced DMT up until now via vaporization. I figured I would start a thread with the intent to be a resource for those considering diving into DMT oraly. If the more experienced members could compare there pharma vs aya sessions that would be great.

Things to discuss should.include the dosage of both the harmalas/DMT or caapi/chakruna. The intensity and duration of experience and which one you prefer. We should start by defining aya and pharma as there is some confusion I regards to what both these terms represent these days.

When discussing ayahuasca I'm referring to a orally consumed tea made from the vine of b caapi(maoi) and the leaves of psychrotia viridis or chaliponga(DMT admixture). Those that would like to discuss experience with Syrian rue and other admixture such as mimosa or acacia are welcome to do so please just specify what you consumed for the sake of knowledge.

Pharahuasca is th extracted and orally consumed alkaloids of the above mentioned plants. Generally caapi or rue alkaloids are consumed with the DMT extract of either mimosa or acacia confusa. When speaking of pharma session please mention what alkaloid extract you used and how many mg.

My intent in starting this thread is to learn and to help other do so as well. Although I plan on doing both pharma and aya in the future I'd like to know how nexians think about the differences and which they prefer.

I've read as that pharma is similar to a smoked DMT session with the obvious fact of duration being extended. There are so many variables here that it is important one mentions as many details as possible in regards to dosage and source material.

I for one have found a new passion for entheogens after being put off by a series of rather dark LSD trips years ago. DMT and other natural entheogend have rekindled my love for the experience.

What about if you are like me and drink caapi tea and dose extracted freebase? I find this is ideal because I prefer caapi tea compared to extracted alkaloids however I am extremely careful to monitor my DMT dose due to harsh experiences in the past.

I guess I'm somewhere in the middle.

I usually drink 50-80g of vine tea and then dose ~40-50mg of DMT freebase dissolved in orange juice. I have found the harmala dosage is much more forgiving than the DMT dosage for me.

Right seeing as you fall in the middle what do we term that ?

I don't know but as long as you include the info as you did it will help people to understand the experience better I think .

As far ad the caapi tea how does that effect your stomach? And 50mg is a rather low dose right? What type of expericne do u get off that dosage?

https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=32331
https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=20719

This topic really should be merged..its been discussed countless times..