Over the years, I've witnessed quite a few mystics and yogis denouncing the use of psychedelics as a quick-and-easy method of inducing temporary higher states of consciousness.

As a novice practitioner of vipassana meditation, I realize causing fundamental brain-change can be really tough work that requires diligence, and patience.

But as someone with zero experience with psychedelics, I have to ask: Have you - through use of psychedelics (and integration, I suppose?) caused any permanent, and positive shifts in your consciousness?

In the context of psychedelics, one yogi had this to say:

An idea or belief or insight can come in an instant. A new thought or strong emotion felt in the moment is not a real change though. The mind is conditioned. Conditioning cannot be changed in an instant. Patterns of relation to mind-body phenomena always return with quick methods to what they were.

No drug can ever compare to the feeling you get after a week long meditation retreat. You have to work for that though, enjoy taking the easy and temporary routes.


Having no experience myself, I cannot deny or agree with what he says. That being said, I would certainly like to find out for myself at some point.


Your thoughts?

both meditation and psychedelics can be useful when trying to explore consciousness. i agree that in the long term meditation should be used over medicine. but psychedelics can be great teachers and powerful tools, anybody who goes into a psy experience with no discipline may not learn anything, but someone with respect and discipline may greatly benefit. with mushrooms your basically ingesting DMT which is endogenous(already inside your body), for me its too much curiosity to not explore this natural phenomena that i suspect is directly related to meditative states.

why one would denounce a tool which is a "quick and easy method of inducing temporary higher states of consciousness" beats me to be honest. I mean come on.. whats not awesome about that? It doesn't mean it has to be the only tool for reaching higher states of consciousness and it certainly doesn't mean the individual doesn't have to put any work in... is it not ok for a human to reach a higher state without spending years and years meditating?

what a great thing to have access to for our species if you ask me. and combined with mediation... whoa.. now thats something. psychedelics deal with these states of consciousness in a much differen't way too. with meditation I never have to deal with the notion of surrender or face my own ego so much. I am in a way the driver of the vehicle. Psychedelics make one a bit more of a passenger in my experience and teach people differen't lessons(as well as some of the same) to mediation which shouldn't be seen as cheating just because they were learned in 10 hrs (or 5 minutes ) rather than 10 years. like terence mckenna said, "whats wrong with shortcuts?"

Both are great tools

I have no real experience in meditation, so I can't make a direct comparison. But I can tell you what psychedelics have done for me. This has been a 25 year journey, since my late teens. My first real breakthrough was in my early twenties, happened on shrooms while listening to a favorite piece of music. As the music crescendoed, I left all physical space for a moment and was immersed in a place of pure love and warmth, and so much infinitely bigger than myself. And there have been hundreds of experiences since, usually under controlled circumstances with a carefully cultivated mindset. So although the yogi is partially right about shortcuts, many psychonauts actually work quite hard on earning their breakthroughs.

As far as what I've gained from all this? Well there are a few basic understandings that many psychedelic users share:

>You are one with everything and everyone;
>Your purpose in life is the thing you enjoy
>You are the creator of your own reality

Being one with everything means that you may experience moments of realizing that you are the mind of the universe. It's like a veil is lifted, and this great, obvious truth stares you in the face.

How does one integrate this stuff? For each person it's different. I'm an artist, and making psychedelic art has for me been a great way of integrating. As far as how it affects my daily life? I think it's made it easier for me to accept life for being the flawed thing it is, as I can see how the whole equation is in a state of perfect imbalance. I don't welcome small personal stresses and disasters, but I am able to accept them as part of a much larger interconnected picture.

I also think its made me deal with other people more thoughtfully. Understanding that other people are in a real sense part of you makes it easier to accept different opinions, that kind of thing.

It's definitely made me a better artist, as the psychedelic experience can be highly visual and contain many beautiful insights. I like to trip in front of my most recent paintings- it helps me to see the next step in the evolution. Since it's improved my art so much, it's helped make me a more successful person- self employed, independent, doing my own thing.

So that's my testimonial. Working with psychedelics effectively is not a shortcut- it's a discipline, requiring hard work and a deep intellectual curiosity. It's not a replacement for meditation, just like kayaking is not a replacement for weight training. It's an approach that fits the needs of many modern Westerners, and in my opinion holds the potential to free people from many of society's burdens.

people who denounce psychedelics and praise other methods in that way just seem very inexperienced with them, to be honest. If one explores both psychedelics and things like meditation/yoga/etc they will get get much much further than if they'd only gone one route, and this becomes totally obvious once its explored. They're just limiting themselves by being so closed minded and dogmatic

Countless people find a lot of eastern practices are much more beneficial when done while taking psychedelics

And he's completely wrong about psychedelics being too quick to change conditioned behavior/emotions/etc..They were referred to as metta-programming substances for a reason, and enough people report changes in imprinted behavior to suggest that they actually do very deep work on our conditioning. But of course it isn't as simple as just taking a cup of ayahuasca and laying back while it does all the work. They are catalysts. Tools. Plant teachers and allies. You have to do the work. And it can be A LOT of work.

"No drug can ever compare to the feeling you get after a week long meditation retreat."

perhaps. although no meditation retreat will compare to the feeling of building a deep connection with mushrooms or ayahuasca over the years. But really, it isn't about a this vs. that to me. meditation and psychedelics are two different things. There are similarities sure, and you can enter some pretty bizarre states 'sober', but there are some major differences.

He seems very stuck in the conditioned view of "drugs" that our culture hammers into people..and neglects to mention how the feelings experienced after a week long meditation retreat have a helluva lot to do with the altered proportions of "drugs" that your own brain produces- the amounts of which are altered by such practices

"Through your use of psychedelics, have you caused any permanent shifts in consciousness?" Yes. But psychedelics were only part of it, albeit a big part

Yes. There's no turning back.

Ibogaine has helped me find my identity, realise I want a relationship instead of casual sex. Helped me talk to people and make friendships.

Im a newbie to psychs too. But for lasting change you should look into ibogaine on erowid and eboka.info

I think there is a difference in de way of reaching en sustaining higher states of conciousnes.

For psychedelics, they can proppel you into higher states for a short period of time and leaves a certain afterglow for several days or perhaps weeks. But whitout any surrounding practices like meditation or others it is almost impossable to sustain these higher states. You have to integrate, work with wat you've experienced,...

As for meditation, you learn to build up to these higher states over a longer period of time. You learn how to find the way yourself by following certain breathing techniques and others. Therefore I believe, when finally reaching these higher states, they can be sustained more easely than with psychedelics.

Psychedelics show you that you can reach higher states. They can take you there in an instant. But without the psychedelic you are coming back to your normal state, altough it might be slightly altered. Because you have sensed things that you normaly don't. Or things you hoped to experience. Or you've been confirmed or de-confirmed of certain believes.

Psychedelics can show you things or change your conciousness when taken. Thus it might give you the urge to find your own way to reaching these states, when believed that this is possible. Then you might start looking for other things like music, meditation, taiji,... to reach a same goal.

For me these ar all tools to become a more aware living being. With psychedelics you can also try and work trouhg some struggles of the self, it can shed light on some things that are holding you back. And this is very interessting.

For me personaly psychedelic experiences have confirmed some ideas I have about reality and life. Altough it has raised certain questions as well. I'm moere certain that there are other dimensions, that matter derives from conciousness. That everything happens for a reason. That conciensness and intelligence is ever present. Separetness does not exist, everything is connected. It gave me the feeling that this life is one of illusion, of not seeing truthfully what really is.

I also realized that I am very attached to what I know, feel, think,... in this life. I'm very attached to my own personality, and this resulted in strong fears when I was no more who I believed I was. For me this is still hard to integrate. The fear still lingers inside. I've become to attached, something wich in my believe is also stimulated by society.

It made me realized that I am not free, and that this is my main goal in life. Becoming a free person, free of fears wich hold me down or keep me captive. I wish also to free others. But I'm still afraid to change, to let go. This I have to overcome to take myself to the next step of evolution. but it is my greatest and most sinsere wish. To be free and knowing.

...

I had some thoughts on this. Since I hold ecological balance as the ultimate basis for defining my terms of good and bad, I have a hard time accepting criticism of truly ancient traditions that have evolved in a state of balance, such as ayahusasca use. So why would Eastern mystics (to use a generic term) be wary of it?

I think the reason is that when something can be isolated to the molecular level, it becomes very easy to manipulate it's context, and the fear is that there is nothing stopping people from using psychadelics towards the self-defeating agenda of ecological transcendence that so much of the world's culture is now running blindly towards.

I think this is an essential concept that should be central to this "debate". While psychedelics can have a hard time with conditioning (sometimes), if it weren't for being able to dive head first into the deep end, many (especially Westerners) would be completely unaware that such realms exist, as many would believe that people had just been lying to them about there being a "deep end" or spirit realm or what have you at all. Upon discovering a certain validity to it, more traditional Eastern practices are often picked up by the psychedelic initiate whereas many would have done no such practices (effectively) without such experiences.

I believe Daniel Pinchbeck talks about how the African tribes use Iboga as a rite of passage for youths (sort of like a psychedelic bar mitzvah if you will ) in the sense that it is used to awaken the young tribesman to the awareness of the spirit world or simply the concept that there is more than simply the physical world and what one can ordinarily sense. I have to imagine that indigenous tribes that used ayahuasca, peyote, san pedro, mushrooms and various entheogenic snuffs and concoctions use their sacraments with similar intentions (as well as for other roles and functions of course such as healing and the like).

Also one can only help but imagine just how experienced these yogis and gurus are with psychedelics that denounce them. Sure maybe they've gotten their feet wet with some light wading through a low dose mushroom trip or something of the sort, but I'd like for these guys to take ayahuasca, smoke DMT (efficiently) at the peak, and then get back to me.

Agreed. Before devoting years to a mystical discipline, psychedelics will make the huge leap of faith unnecessary. It's like walking to a place you visited once by plane. Walking can be more rewarding and you have plenty of time to prepare yourself properly for the stay, but the place itself is the same.

And to the OP, I know they have caused a permanent shift in my perspective.

i think meditation can have very positive long term effects but so can psychadelics if taken in the right context and respected, it all has to do with the way u integrate them into ur life, ur lifestyle has more an effect on u than either of these, and this i learned throgh psychadelics. U can have many powerful trips and the next day go to ur usual grind of a life, working in some dead end job that makes u miserable and u wont be improving ur life. Just as fast as the ego can be healed, it can be unhealed. I think meditation is an amazing tool especially in conjunction with psychadelics. Dont think i can judge which is better since both have had huge positive impact in my life, but to think meditation is all u need and psychadelics u dont is not going to do u any good. there are many things that i think psychadelics can do and show/teach u that only meditation wont

As other have said, it doesn't have to be either/or. While I'd probably choose yoga now if I absolutely had to, it was in fact psychedelics that sparked my interest in yoga as a spiritual discipline.

It may make sense for the yogi alone on top of the mountain to say that chemical agents aren't needed, but when you take it to the corner yoga studio with wall-length mirrors and people dressed in lululemon, focusing mostly on getting their butts tight for the summer (while still mumbling words in Sanskrit to keep the vibe going), the situation changes.

Just out of curiosity, to the flip side of your question, have you ever spent several years sober while meditating for hours every day?

Ram Dass, who Im sure is plenty experienced with psychedelics, talks about this in one of his lectures. He basically says, "Psychedelics allow you to be in the presence of jesus for a short time, but it is better to become jesus."

I agree with a lot of what is being said, and for me, psychedelics are like you said global, a reminder that these states of mind are possible to attain. In my opinion there is a difference between attaining them through psychedelics and meditation, but for me psychedelics can be a tool to keep me motivated to meditate and work on myself more. To the Op-it doesnt matter what your spiritual path is, there is no quick and easy way to enlightenment. Spending a week in a meditation retreat does you very little good if when you get back to your normal life you stop meditating, the same way that a psychedelic experience does you little good if you dont work to integrate it after.

See i wouldn't be able to tell if any permanent shifts took place, since I've always been obsessed with psychedelics. Two different paths that lead to the same area, or maybe the paths are the same, since its all in our heads. Every person is different just like every understanding or view of consciousness and ways for exploring it. I do believe that any state achieved through psy use can also be achieved through meditation and vice versa. I try to replicate and copy some of my states from hyperspace into meditation, so that one day I could blast off on command with out the use of the compound lol. I think its hogwash to say using psychedelics is a shortcut or cheating, quite the opposite. An extremely powerful method for exploration. However if I could retreat somewhere and take a vow of silence and meditate for ever I would, unfortunately I can not.

"Ram Dass, who Im sure is plenty experienced with psychedelics, talks about this in one of his lectures. He basically says, "Psychedelics allow you to be in the presence of jesus for a short time, but it is better to become jesus."


Maybe it is just me, but I often used to think that much of what Ram Dass said is a load of crap. He also claims to have given repeated doses of LSD, more and more each time to some guru without it effecting him becasue he was already there. That to me makes little sense..so meditation makes a person more tolerant to psychedelics? Always seemed to be the other way around IME..

This combined with the fact that so many yogis and gurus in india were completely facinated with all the psychedelics comming from the west in the 60's and many praised them. Tons of yogi's are also dedicated to ganja and datura and smoke chara mixes with their meditation practices..

All of that combined with the fact that the whole yogic and tantra system seems to have been birthed within an earlier shamanic tradition that predates hinduism and other religions of the area..and they are suspected with great evidence to have used psychoactive plants..if you go to nepal for instance there is still a heavy presence of these plants there within the shamanic tradition..and these shamans there will all tell you that all of the hindu gods, yoga, yantras and tantras come from shamanism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73Vw9wIAX58
Just watch that^

Not that I dont find some of his(Ram Dass) words useful as well, but I always liked Metzner and Leary more..

I also never felt like I was in the presense of Jesus when I took psychedelics..nor do I wish to be jesus. I dont even know what the hell that statement means..it sounds like some nice words that dont mean anything really. Like, I dunno a whitty little comment like that just seems like an easy way out..

..some people thing jesus ate lots of mushrooms..other people think jesus was a mushroom...ever hear of the book "the sacred mushroom and the cross"?

Here is a very good article on that subject:
ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-ADM/stolar.htm

enjoy

..i think such 'mystics' fail to acknowledge the amount of training and discipline required of more 'shamanic' kinds of paths..i also think some of these 'yogic' types are in fear of surrendering to Plant Spirits, a core of most shamanic practices which i believe are the root of many of these eastern paths..institutions and ego took over..

so, with a disciplined and humble approach, i believe entheogens can improve meditative ability, comprehension of spiritual ideas,and instruct in the 'tao' or 'prana' etc. without the need for gurus and power-based institutions (like much of hinduism, bhuddism and all judeo-christian religions)

so, for me, and a few others i know who 'work hard' on themselves and relations, definite long term positive improvement..anyone who thinks plant entheogens are 'easy' is not fully aware of them..and if they are a bit quicker than what's gone down the last 2000 years, well good and timely i say..
.

Interesting topic.
It is already documented that psychadelic use in a proper setting can lead to long term residual benefits that may last many months after the "therapy" has stopped. This is mostly thanks to support and intent is maintained.
I have no doubt that meditation also has it's benefits, but will never give a peak experience as fast as a psychadelic can. Actually, it's my belief that because of entheogen use that people started to meditate. It's certainly more natural to eat a mushroom than it is to spend ages sat meditating IMO.