About purging, I purge from pharma just about as routinely as with the plants... The nausea leading up to it IS different, with the plants causing a "churning" or "writhing" in the guts which can persist throughout the trip until I purge. With pharma it's more like actual pain in the gut and is very uncomfortable but if I don't purge for about 20-30 minutes it goes away... Then again I've purged with pharma just from the intensity of the trip.

Re: capsules... I don't use 'em; I usually opt instead to dissolve my freebase in some form of acid-water (usually vinegar water), so the absorption is similar.


I DO find a difference in effects however, it seems a little like a psychedelic equivalent of a 10 minute guitar solo, minus a full band. It's a little less forgiving and can be terrifying. But I'm so glad I stuck with it through the difficult experiences, I got so much out of them and I feel as though withstanding such suffering and the having it all "click" and unify into LOVE is simply amazing. It's all about that sweet spot and if you tread too far above your sweet spot it gets CRAZY.

Then again, I'm not taking normal pharma, I just take my freebase with ground harmala or harmala tea... And I wish more people could get over the aya-purist attitude or at least not hate on harmala... I have a great relationship with the stuff and I think he has just as much to offer in terms of "power" as caapi.

I've only had pharma three times, twice with rue freebase and DMT fumerate and once with caapi and rue free base and DMT fumerate. With this limited experience I have found pharma to be alot less structure compared to an aya journey.

Aya is a Journey that takes you through stages. First stage - confrontation, second stage - acceptance, third stage - integration.

For me pharma has so far lacked these stages and just stays at the confrontation stage leading to frustration then come down. I do plan to continue working with with both though to see if I can work through this.

Edit.

Thinking back I have actually had pharma 4 times. twice with rue freebase, once with caapi freebase and once with a mix of both rue and caapi freebase.

I was expecting a more structured journey with the caapi compared to the rue but found it still lacking compared to Ayahuasca. I then tried tweaking the mix with caapi and rue alkaloids but found the experience still lacking in structure compared to an aya brew.

My next journey will be with the aya brew to make sure it is the substance and not my current head space that is messing with the trip. I guess its all so subjective that there is no end and no answer. That is the nature of the knowledge that we seek.

OK Jamie, i guess there are a lot of tweaking possibilities here. But one thing that stands out for me from what i read was that the Caapi is for some more grounding an experience, and Caapi does contain different alkaloid ratios than rue which may be responsible for this difference.
I also read that traditional Ayahuasca is called so because it has the sacred Ayahuasca vine in it. As you have mentioned on another thread, there are other "vines" that not only have the maoi inhibitors, but also have leaves that have the DMT, so are a sortof complete Ayahuasca plant in that sense. Whatever, we are talking about a concoction that contains a vine of that "type", a sacred vine, the rest is simply an "admixture", not Ayahuasca.

Pharmahuasca that contains a Caapi extract may or may not be termed Ayahuasca for that reason, but we are splitting hairs here. Of course, the whole point for a lot of people for doing Pharmahuasca is because it's quick to prepare (no long cooking), and it can be made very nausea free if using a pharmaceutical maoi inhibitor and extracted dmt according to some posts i read elsewhere. I also read that the main understanding for making Pharmahuasca rather than Ayahuasca was based on making best with whatever ingredients were at hand. Now if someone was to go out of their way to prepare Caapi extracts to make Pharmahuasca, then i would be surprised when they could just boil up some vine and leaves instead, cos to me it makes sense this way.
(Given the choice i would rather make a traditional Ayahuasca using those plant spirits that were discovered in the Jungle, than plants sourced from different continents, For me anyhow, any subtle difference is well worth it, and that's what matters.)



Interesting point, 'Robots'.
The Caapi purge is supposedly more of a medicinal and relieving purge according to the traditional viewpoint. Could this mean that a "rue nausea/ purge" is instead more likely due to a possible maoi toxicity?? Really, i have read that Caapi is much safer diet wise for the body than rue is.



Interesting point, Rahlii.
This in fact is exactly what i meant when i mentioned that Caapi is more grounded and "guiding". I read elsewhere that people that did Pharmahuasca didn't feel guided or as protected and grounded as they did compared to an Aya brew. Of course this could be because of how a brew was made, but even so it does illustrate the possible benefits of a Caapi brew over a non Cappi brew, i would imagine.

To sum up, people choose to do Pharmahuasca for various reasons, such as:
1.Caapi takes time to prepare, and requires long boils to extract the "goodies", whereas rue, etc, is relatively quick and easy to prepare.
2.Rue, etc, is usually cheaper and less of an issue to get hold of compared to Caapi.
3.Certain maoi's don't cause purging, Caapi can, and ofter does, although this is not a fixed rule.

In terms of experience, there have been countless trip reports posted that state in general terms that Ayahuasca seems to be a more "earthy and guided" learning experience. Whereas Pharmahuasca is not quite so. Generally speaking, Ayahuasca is mostly Caapi and Chakruna in a 1:1 ratio which uses 2 jungle plants boiled together. There are also other admixtures added, and some vines may offer the maoi and dmt, but Caapi and Chakuna is the general rule. These plants have their own spirits and own signature to the experience.
Pharmahuasca is generally Rue and Mimosa. Mimosa can even work without an maoi, and has it's own special characteristics according to some.

Pharmahuasca and Ayahuasca are similar, but NOT the same experience in my opinion, and those of others (according to what i have read).

I do not agree that pharmas purpose is to make things quick and easy. All consciousness expanding substances are about doing the work not trying to avoid it. Alot of research, craft, time and experimentation goes into developing these tools. The fact of the matter is though that the amount of evolutionary time invested into the Ayahuasca brew far outweighs where we are currently at with pharma. If we work hard at it pharma may one day approach Ayahuasca but I feel she has a long way to go yet. However she will never get even close if we just look at her as a short cut.

Rahlii, i think you misunderstand me. Pharmahuasca is much easier to prepare than Traditional Ayahuasca, and quite possibly is less vomit worthy depending what it contains. People choose Pharmahuasca usually because of those reasons. This is not to say that it will also be a qucik rushed experience, though.

Of course anyone wanting the "real deal" on Ayahuasca should focus on Caapi and Chakruna, or that similar jungle vine Jamie comments on. Pharmahuasca is Pharmahuasca, but is not Ayahuasca, nor can ever be.

Aye what you say is likely true for most.

My pharma is made with caapi freebase alks extracted from homegrown vine. The dmt fumerate was extracted from home grown chacruna. Its much easier to brew up some Ayahuasca that is for sure. The funny thing with what I'm working with is that it was once Ayahuasca, at least the components of it, but now its not. I'm sure there are plenty of folks working with similar materials and it would be interesting to hear more of their opinions on the difference between caapi and chacruna extracted pharma in comparison to the traditional brew.

I can't give an informed opinion on your interpretation of the preparation of and intention behind pharma other then its not the same as mine. But we both can agree that they are both not as structured or "guided" as the ayahuasca brew.

Then why not then just brew up some Ayahuasca?..

Really i don't understand the point of going to the hassle of extracting Caapi alks from homegrown vine, or dmt fumerate from home grown Chakruna in order to make a pharmahuasca??

In actual fact i doubt it's Pharmahuasca, it sounds more like it's Ayahuasca cos it contains Caapi extracted Alks, like Aya does anyway. People usually make Pharma cos it's quick and easy to prepare, and cos they don't have any Caapi to hand. To me, it doesn't make sense what you are doing.

Surely the problem with this is not just that it seems like a step backwards. Surely extracted stuff like this also misses out other important components that make for a fuller experience?? So you'd rather make life hard for yourself to have some extracts that potentially can offer a lesser experience??
Why do this when you can instead brew full spectrum Ayahuasca and store it on sterile jars. Apparently it lasts for ages as others have said??.

doesn't the term pharmahuasca apply to the method of administration ? that is, both the maoi and the dmt are extracted and encapsulated or dissolved and drank.

as far as my understanding goes from reading the info here on the forum pharmahuasca tell's us that you are consuming extracts and not the brewed plant.. nothing more.

Pharmahuasca normally means creating an Ayahuasca type drink using SUBSTITUTES for the traditional plants used. This is usually because it's quicker to prepare, rue tea being a lot quicker to make than boiling Caapi, etc, and can offer less purging possibilities.

The timing of the maoi and dmt is optional, but Ayahuasca can be made seperately as well, and it's still Ayahuasca, because it contains Caapi.

Boiling Aya is a water extraction of the key compounds, extracts of Caapi and Chakruna are not really pharmahuasca, but Ayahuasca...just prepared in a non traditional way.

To repeat, Ayahuasca is Ayahuasca cos it contains Caapi and Chakruna in an oral form. That then becomes Changa when you make it into a smokeable blend. Pharmahuasca relates to making a drink that SUBSTITUTES the Caapi part with a similar compound. The Chakruna may or may not be changed. Remember ayahuasca is "all about" the Caapi part, the rest are just admixtures. The seperation of ingredients or drinking them as one can be done with Ayahuasca or Pharmahuasca. However in Traditional terms both are prepared and drunk together.

Once again, Pharmahuasca is about creating an "Ayahuasca type drink" using SUBSTITUTES for the traditional plants used: Especially Caapi.

"In actual fact i doubt it's Pharmahuasca, it sounds more like it's Ayahuasca cos it contains Caapi extracted Alks"

You have your own definition of "pharmahuasca" then that is not in line with the origional definition. Johnothan ott coined the term and he was selling pills of harmine and 5meoDMT back when it was legal and he called it "pharmahuasca". He used the term to describe any extracted harmalas and DMT or other tryptamines when taken together. It does not matter what plant source they are extracted from..if you have extracted harmalas and DMT it is pharmahuasca, plain and simple.

Lets just avoid the whole thing abotu pharmaceutical MAOI's like moclobemide becasue that is a TOTALLY different thing altogether and I dont know anyone here who even does that. Moclobemide is not a beta carboline and will not resemble rue or caapi.

I personally do not take pharma. After trying it a few times I have little interest in it because something was lacking. This was from manske rue alkaloids and DMT fumerate from mimosa..now, you cannot judge rue based on pharma done this way. Rue is easily on par with caapi inmy experience, but a manske on rue only extracts harmine and harmaline and the experience is not as full as a brew of rue, or caapi. There is alot more in rue than just harmine/harmaline. So in that sense I would say that yes, at least MY pharma was lacking.

That does not mean that one cannot extract the full spectrum of alkaloids from rue or caapi. It might be difficult though. I have never tried to do it and dont care to at this point. I am sure someone here could do it though and most likely what people claim is missing would be there.

"Pharmahuasca relates to making a drink that SUBSTITUTES the Caapi part with a similar compound"

That is again your own definition, and not in line with what "pharmahuasca" origionally meant. Pharmahuasca has nothing to do with making a drink. It has to do with being comprised of synthetic or extracted and purified harmalas and DMT, thats it.

even the name associates on that, ayahuasca in a pill at least to me.

This is interesting. Isn't Ayahuasca a liquid containing extracted harmalas and dmt though? Ok, i guess it depends how you understand the term "extracts".I guess full spectrum extracted Alkaloids wouldn't classify cos they might contain other than simply harmalas, and the same for dmt. Doesn't extracted dmt from mimosa reputely contain traces of yuremimine or sommat similar?

As fractal said, pharmahuasca means purified alkaloids being used.. When talking about other plants such as rue and mimosa, that would be an ayahuasca analogue (or anahuasca, as Ott called it), but not pharmahuasca.

As for their differences, Ayahuasca experience is not the same as pharmahuasca experience IME, but they are both valid. Specially if taking the alkaloids in a paper 'bomb' or capsuled, its much less effective for me. With pharma, I often needed 250mg+ DMT to feel anything decent, but when taking ayahuasca (and a plant admixture or just adding pure dmt to the caapi brew), I need significantly less than this, maybe half the amount. Maybe it has to do with trace alkaloids in caapi, or who knows what else.

In any case, I did have some very good pharma experiences, so I dont think its bad or anything, but its not the same as aya. Each one have their own place.

Try both and let us know how they compare for you

I don't swallow that ..Ayahuasca can be dried in an oven, scraped up and encapsulated too!

you got it out of context a bit

you can go for that too, yes. but your stuff will have a lot of impurities so again you will be ingesting capsules, not capsule or only one pill.

IMO the whole idea is to get the extracts purified so you can fit them in one capsule or pill...but again its just my understanding of the things i have read by now.

Its not just about where you fit it, its also related to what you purify. The idea of purifying alkaloids is that you want that specific part, not the rest. So for example one can purify harmalas out of rue, because maybe one does not want vasicine/vasicinone alkaloids, or doesnt want other plant compounds that can generate more nausea, and just want the MAOI action of harmalas. Or so on.

Of course, in the process of purifying, one also loses other compounds which may or may not be beneficial. Maybe these other compounds have synergistic effects with the other compounds you are keeping, or maybe they have other interesting medicinal or psychoactive effect by themselves. I think that some people have prejudice against purified compounds as if they are a priori bad, but I dont think that stands, I think thats a fallacy. Each thing in their own place, with their own characteristics. There's no good or bad, it all depends on what you want and context. Try them out and let us know how it goes for you

I don't know why you insist on consuming the DMT + Harmalas the "traditional" way, why don't you then eat leaves and bark directly as it is even more natural?

No really I'm kidding but I read lot of people saying how "traditional" aya is better and all that stuff, but trust me, if they had possibility to extract like we have now, they would do it.

Ayahuasca, pharmahuasca etc. are all living things in the present, so maybe everyone should stop imitate the past and just learn from it.
Also remember, in few hundred/thousand years, pharmahuasca will be treated as "traditional", and people will say "yea, let's do some pharma the traditional way, forget about the _put_modern_extraction_name_here".

Peace !

Ha!..you really have said it now, haven't you!

..You mean one day people will turn their noses up at battering Caapi Vines to shreds and plucking Chakruna leaves in favor for easy to use extracts for our fashion conscious lifestyles of convenience? Cos we can't fit long boils in with our long, daft working hours and commitments???... ORDER..ORDER!!!!

You are projecting too much imo, christian, seem like a lot of prejudices and arbitrary subjective associations there.