Hello all,

I'm new to the forum and am really glad to be here (you can read my intro essay in the appropriate section if you'd like so that I won't have to repeat myself). I saw a thread in the ethnobotanicals part of the forum that really captured my interest. As I don't currently have full posting privileges, I hope it's ok that I ask a question related to that post over here in the welcome section. I have been interested in entheogens for a number of years now. I do extensive online research, am very safety-conscious, and value the input of kind strangers with great personal experiences such as yourselves.

My question is this. I have munched on these (Celastrus paniculatus) seeds a few times before for their cognitive enhancing effects, but am especially interested in combining celastrus with an adaptogen such as rhodiola (or potentially eleuthero or maybe maca) for stress relief, as well as the improved motivation and focus that is required for intense post-graduate study. Has anyone heard of or tried a combination such as this and, if so, would you care to share any positives or negatives that may come from this combination? As I mentioned before, I am incredibly safety conscious and while I am confident of the safety of these two supplements on their own, I would appreciate any information about combining celastrus seed or oil with an adaptogen. Thank you!

KarmaG

Hate to say I have not combined the two, but I just wanted to say I've also just started using celastrus and it's pretty great so far...

Tell us more I'm interested as well, thinking about ordering some together with MHRB in a couple of weeks time..

I've been taking the tea equivalent of about 10 seeds twice a day for a week... effectively, it's gotten rid of the mental muzziness from all the weed that gets vaped 'round these parts. The most interesting effect I've noticed is that it very physically warms me up for a little bit, an hour or two after taking it. It's been great, as it provides some of the mental clarity that comes with a stiff cup of coffee, but without the jittery caffeine stimulation, and over a longer period of time.

I know in the other Celastrus thread someone asked how many seeds per oz. As this is easily quantifiable, I'll start with that question first. I measured out 1 gram of seeds. They are very oily and vary in size (and therefore weight as well, I assume) considerably. I tried to get a decent mixture of different sizes in my sample and counted them up. There are approximately 40 seeds per gram in my batch (more or less) so in a 1 oz order, one could expect 1120 seeds roughly. Plenty to last a good long while.



Sorry for my delay in answering your question. School has been crazy lately. This isn't completely objective, of course, but I did feel a clarity of thought and more fluidity in memory and recall while using the seeds during my finals last semester. I'd say that within 1-1.5 hours of ingesting 7-10 seeds (chewed up and swallowed -tastes awful!), recall was noticeably improved. I was running on very little sleep the week leading up to finals which ordinarily fogs the memory, but was able to clearly recall sections of my notes during exams. If I closed my eyes and concentrated, I was able to easily bring up the picture of that page in my notes and access it even when I was in the exam hall. I'm willing to credit these little seeds with improving my photographic memory considerably. I haven't taken them in a month or so and notice that this ability is definitely not present at the moment. Going to try again today and for the next week or so, so I will definitely note any additional effects that I may not have noticed in the last trial.

As for my certainty of its safety, I suppose "certain" is a strong word, and I probably shouldn't have used it. I'm not too certain about anything anymore!! But that's more philosophical and I digress. What I should say is that Celastrus has many many years of traditional use in Ayurvedic medicine without concerns of its safely. It is commonly used by university students in India, and is used also as a brain-tonic in children with learning disabilities in the same region. I tend to take traditional use especially in children as a good indicator of safety. I also found some great journal articles that confirmed that the plant has a very low potential for toxicity. I believe the LD50 (for the seeds at least) is a ridiculously high number and I have yet to see any documentation of mutagenic effects. In fact, it seems that everything I read indicates that this is a very safe plant with many years of use. I know statements without reference aren't worth the screen they're typed on, so I will do some digging later today to find the journal articles.

Thanks everyone for contributing. I think this plant has very real potential as an effective nootropic.

So I know it's been a little while but as there is another thread running on the same topic that was/is receiving far more interest and attention, I was finding it moderately frustrating to have 2 threads on the same topic running so I decided to just let the original thread take over. There's a lot of good information on that thread and I'm really pleased with the amount of interest this plant has been generating.

However, I have a follow-up question and this appears to be the only place I am able to post, so here goes. I'm wondering if anyone who has used any of the racetams (especially Piracetam since that's what I have here) can compare/contrast their experiences between the two (Piracetam vs Celastrus). How do the effects differ, how are they similar, and for those of you who have tried both, which do you prefer? Has anyone combined the two and if so, what effected were noted? And finally, I'm wondering if anyone can comment on supplementing with choline while using Celastrus and does this increase the effects like it does with the racetams? I have had good luck with Celastrus for my finals, but am interested in taking something long-term and Piracetam seems to have far more research available about long-term use. Thanks everyone for the knowledge!

The other thread also caught my attention (what little attention was available before the seeds - I'm ADD) and I got the cheap seeds from India. I find them quite amazing!

After about a month now with almost daily dosing with about 15 seeds a day in the morning smoothie I feel better every day. I think they beat metlyfenidat, modafinil etc in improving my cognitive abilities AND if needed it does takes away more of the weed hangover than anything else I have tried. I also find meditation to be improved. All this without causing any unwanted stimulation. If you want stimulation it combines good with coffee or any nicer xanine stimulant like tea or kola nut.

Anyways, to answer a few of the questions in this thread:

I combined the seeds with the following adaptogens: Ashwagandha, Maca, Hawthorn and Goji without noticing any side effects.

I also spent an evening reading abstracts of probably 50 papers on the topic and concluded it seemed quite safe. I did find two slightly worrisome things: An opioid receptor seems to be involved. And, in mice, sperm is disrupted but is fully restored when stopping treatment.

Also, in mice, the full cognitive effect takes 2 weeks to build up so don't be discouraged if you are not satisfied with the effect the first day. I don't think I noticed any effect at all the first day I took them.

I'd like to know the answer to all these as well heh.

My first step after reading this thread was to see if I could find the active constituent of Celastrus for it's effects. Anyone aware if the substance has been isolated yet?

Sorry, I can't comment on the combos, how ever I have also been having some great effecst from these seeds, lucidity, memory, mood & concentration all seem to be positively influenced. I also found that with a cup of coffee in the morning before physical labor, the work (painting / decorating in this case) became very easy, and I glided through it. The seeds are also great for alleviating the 'stone over' as well. So far, using them 3x a week, I can't fault them. My GF has experimented with them as well, with similar effects.

While the taste is pretty horrible (the first few taste ok, but after that it gets very bitter and it lingers), I think it is a small price to pay. I think these will be a handy little weapon in my arsenal for some time!

i just ordered some of these little fella's, i will report back with my findings in a month or so.

I'm still not entirely sure how Piracetam/Choline work together, but this appears to be an acetylcholine promoter, and might be useful combined with Piracetam?

I haven't checked in on this thread in a while but still can't contribute to the main one because of my newness, but I wanted to share some recent impressions of celastrus. I haven't tried celastrus with Piracetam, but I have been having excellent results using maca and celastrus together. I'm in grad school in a very stressful program. It's a crazy time of year and everyone is getting really worked up but for me it's like stress melts away and I get a lot done with a big smile on my face. Some nights I get 3.5 hrs of sleep and am able to function as if I'd had 8 (granted I can't sustain this - it's more like a one-off cramming before exams etc). I've only been taking the two together for a month or so, and not every day, but this combination has improved my life dramatically.

Has anyone else found any good celastrus combos? What are thoughts on the safety of long(ish)-term use of the maca-celastrus combo? I'm hoping that because maca is a food and has a good safety profile and celastrus seems to be very safe as well that it should be cool. Does anyone know any more about this?

You've piqued my interest, I also have some Rhodiola sitting around so I'll report back. Never knew there was a herb that could treat weed fog, sounds amazing. Got quite a few herbs incl. maca and also a lot of piracetam too. Dis gon b gud

I have not tried the two together, but I have taken celastrus and lions mane. I am currently taking lions mane twice a day with very noticeable improvements to memory, concentration, and mood. I think the celastrus may go well with the lions mane, so I'll give it a try and let you know how it goes! I have some exams next week, so it would be a good time.

For those complaining about the taste:
I am a firm believer in gelcaps! The seeds grind up easily in a coffee grinder. There are some good gelcapping machines for not too much. I can do 24 gel caps in about 3 minutes or so. I can't tell you how useful this has been for so many things!

Celastrus and lion's mane sounds like it could be a promising combo. Nootropics are fascinating. I used to be so into alterative and haze-inducing substances, I find it so amazing that this natural clarity and energy tops anything else. It's awesome to be clear, focused, and productive!

Anyone know any more about how celastrus should be taken long term? Does it require cycling or days off?

These seeds sound amazing. I want to place an order, does any one know of a good vendor I can buy the seeds from that ships to Canada? I found one but it was out of stock. Any recommendations would be appreciated! Thank you.

I got mine from a particular garden that caters to folks of a shamanic persuasion, if you catch my drift....

In case you haven't read it, lots of interesting info on Celastrus in this thread.

Got my first batch from the same place and was not disappointed. Just restocked with some from a different vendor who I've been purchasing other stuff from with excellent results but unfortunately he doesn't ship outside the US. Looking forward to trying the new stuff to compare the potency.

The above thread is exactly why I signed up for an account with the nexus, hoping to contribute to it. As some constructive criticism, it would be great to merge these two threads so that we have all the information about this plant in one location. The only issue is that I cannot post in the main section due to my small number of posts and "newness", however, I don't see myself ever getting full posting privileges since my interests are so specific and this is the only topic I post about. If I could be allowed to post in the main celastrus thread it would really make my day, but I understand that this is not how things work here. Still, it's a bit of a disappointment that my experiences are relegated to a less-frequented thread. That's all. Thanks for listening.