You do not have to see alike, feel alike or even think alike in order spiritually to be alike
Posts: 703 Joined: 24-Aug-2011 Last visit: 10-Jul-2014 Location: USA
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ItGetsBetterWiki"Posting things online to a stranger on a public forum can hardly be interpreted as harassment." Id like to see how the high school kid who is not only ostracized by his fellow class mates in the halls but also in his/her own home via social networking feels about this. This is were I see lives being ruined. The It Gets Better project for instance is in part a result of the suicide of young people bullied in school and on the web. Like i said abuse is abuse Toadfreak!
Travel like a king
Listen to the inner voice
A higher wisdom is at work for you
Conquering the stumbling blocks come easier
When the conqueror is in tune with the infinite
Every ending is a new beginning
Life is an endless unfoldment
Change your mind, and you change your relation to time
Free your mind and the rest will follow
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 410 Joined: 23-Apr-2011 Last visit: 13-Jul-2024 Location: Texas
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I read enough sir, and am quite familiar with history. I understand your outlook on how racist hate may be more severe than non-racist hate. I really don't quite understand how racist messages infringe on anyone's rights as a human. If you can enlighten me, please state how expressing hate for a group detrimentally and DIRECTLY affects their freedoms. If hurting someone's feelings is considered as affecting someone's freedom we have a LOT of laws to reform and to implement. ;p I live in the US, and hate speech is protected by law as long as it doesn't incite violence. You can accuse me of condoning it all you want, I don't. As ignorant as hate is, we can't tell other's how to think and speak if they are not hurting anyone. What do I do when I hear a racist blabbering on and on when I'm listening to the radio? I change the station. “The most compelling insight of that day was that this awesome recall had been brought about by a fraction of a gram of a white solid, but that in no way whatsoever could it be argued that these memories had been contained within the white solid. Everything I had recognized came from the depths of my memory and my psyche. I understood that our entire universe is contained in the mind and the spirit. We may choose not to find access to it, we may even deny its existence, but it is indeed there inside us, and there are chemicals that can catalyze its availability.”
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 410 Joined: 23-Apr-2011 Last visit: 13-Jul-2024 Location: Texas
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Toadfreak1 wrote:ItGetsBetterWiki"Posting things online to a stranger on a public forum can hardly be interpreted as harassment." Id like to see how the high school kid who is not only ostracized by his fellow class mates in the halls but also in his/her own home via social networking feels about this. This is were I see lives being ruined. The It Gets Better project for instance is in part a result of the suicide of young people bullied in school and on the web. Like i said abuse is abuse I should have worded that better. I meant that a person posting on a forum about a soccer player he will most likely never meet, or never talk to, and saying ignorant obscenities about him can not be interpreted as harassment. The other scenario you provide is clear to me. An individual is being bullied at school, and is then being bullied on social networks he frequents. It's a deliberate ploy by the perpetrators to get his attention through social media. That IS harassment. “The most compelling insight of that day was that this awesome recall had been brought about by a fraction of a gram of a white solid, but that in no way whatsoever could it be argued that these memories had been contained within the white solid. Everything I had recognized came from the depths of my memory and my psyche. I understood that our entire universe is contained in the mind and the spirit. We may choose not to find access to it, we may even deny its existence, but it is indeed there inside us, and there are chemicals that can catalyze its availability.”
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 226 Joined: 17-Mar-2011 Last visit: 11-Mar-2019
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It's a slippery slope... And a sort of arbitrariness goes into defining hate speech. My previous post mentioned the restrictions of hate speech in the U.S. On topic, I think this shouldn't have come as any surprise. Individuals should act as if being monitored by authorities, as an act of precaution. There's no such thing as a free society, only in one's abstract thoughts. "'Most men will not swιm before they are able to.' Is not that witty? Naturally, they won't swιm! They are born for the solid earth, not for the water. And naturally they won't think. They are made for life, not for thought. Yes, and he who thinks, what's more, he who makes thought his business, he may go far in it, but he has bartered the solid earth for the water all the same, and one day he will drown."
— Hermann Hesse
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"No, seriously"
Posts: 7324 Joined: 18-Jan-2007 Last visit: 09-Feb-2025 Location: Orion Spur
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Would you people like it, if another person comes to our DMT-Nexus forum and: * Starts a hate speech? * Starts to insult individuals? What do you think will happen when they start doing that here? And how do you think this is different when it is done in public? And what do you think makes it different when it is on another website? Less insulting? Less hateful? More right? jbark stated it extremely well: With your FREEDOM of speech comes RESPONSIBILITY: The RESPONSIBILITY to not take away the FREEDOM of other people. Hate speech takes away FREEDOM of others, you stigmatize people and with that you are lowering their life standards. It's what worries me a lot with people who think they have a "right" to something: they just go ahead doing their thing and forget that they have to life together with ALL the other people. Why do these people think they are of a higher standard and that they do not have to take other peoples feelings and freedom into account? Really, with any FREEDOM comes RESPONSIBILITY, if you cannot take that responsibility then you are not worth that freedom either. Kind regards, The Traveler
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omnia sunt communia!
Posts: 6024 Joined: 29-Jul-2009 Last visit: 18-Feb-2025
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easyrider wrote:alert wrote:SnozzleBerry wrote:Hate speech is not constitutionally protected in the US... When was hate speech limited in the United States? Westboro Baptist Church protests funerals of dead soldiers, children, and victims of natural disasters all across the country with signs proclaiming "GOD HATES FAGS" relevent court case It is protected by the 1st Amendment, unless it contains obscenity, defamation, incitement to riot, or fighting words. If you read the tweets, they contain both obscenity and 'fighting words'. As such, imo, this hate speech would not be protected in the US...although, as with all qualifiers, that would be up to the court to decide. Thanks for posting the qualifiers, easyrider  Wiki • Attitude • FAQThe Nexian • Nexus Research • The OHTIn New York, we wrote the legal number on our arms in marker...To call a lawyer if we were arrested. In Istanbul, People wrote their blood types on their arms. I hear in Egypt, They just write Their names. גם זה יעבור
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 486 Joined: 01-Nov-2011 Last visit: 07-Aug-2012 Location: 127.0.0.1
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/comme...n-army-facebook-commentsWhat about this case? This is a comment posted on facebook criticizing the armies actions in the middle east, I largely share the sentiments although I feel his comment that soldiers should die because they are scum is pretty misguided, most (or at least a very large percentage) of soldiers have been convinced by propaganda that what they are doing is just and that they are genuinely trying to help, so I don't think wanting them to die is the right attitude... a change of their awareness would be better. But anyway, this persons post is not racist and is not directed at any individual at all.. it is directed at the military in general and is not a threat, just a (misguided) desire. For this he is being charged with treason and faces 6 months in jail... Surely this constitutes injustice on the part of the authorities and is a stifling of free speech. I am not an advocate of complete freedom to say whatever you want. I agree that cases of serious bullying and such like should be met with an attempt to show this person how wrong what they are doing is, perhaps prosecution is a good way of doing this... but there has to be a line between these kinds of actions and the action of being critical of whole organizations, especially organizations who kill innocent people. -Я Ξ √ Ω L U T ↑ Ø N-
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 454 Joined: 28-May-2011 Last visit: 08-Aug-2013 Location: always on the move
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jbark wrote:Ummm... hard to divide the two. If you stand up in a mall, or school, or street corner and scream racial hate, someone will report you and the police will arrive and arrest you - please explain the difference to me? Writing hate, speaking hate, screaming hate, publicly, whether on the web or live, is unnacceptable and in any decent society is punishable. THINK hate, and you are a hateful person, but have not broken any laws and I will defend to the death anyone's right to THINK. Try and SPREAD hate publicly, and I will defend any governement's right to PERSECUTE you, regardless of FORMAT, and regardless of how it came to their attention. "Think before you spread ideas. And think before you support the spreading of others' ideas..."I think this last sentence comes from a quote I heard General Pinochet of Chile make shortly after his coup d'état, as justification for throwing thousands into torture camps. Quote:So if you support the governments definition of crime, I'd be correct in assuming that you are also a supporter of the war on drugs? That simple possession of class A substances justifies lengthy jail terms? Or are you picking and choosing here to suit your own moral stance? This is the weakest argument in support of hatred I have ever seen! I mean, really? The governement indicts hate crimes AND indicts drug users, so if you are a DRUG USER you must by association support HATE? That is some twisted logic my good friend...In no way am I associating support for hatred, that's simply the way you choose to interpretate it. Also we have to differentiate between racist comments and rants/bad jokes from pure racial hatred, (as would be promoted by extreme right wing groups). This is about freedom of speech of ordinary non violent persons. They should be able to have the same freedom conversing with friends over the web as they would sharing a few drinks with them " down the pub". You see it doesn't take much to encourage governements to accelerate their curtailment of civil liberty " by creep" When they steal freedoms from you at the rate of 3-4% a year, don't be suprised to wake up 15 years from now with no freedom whatsoever. JBArk
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 559 Joined: 24-Dec-2011 Last visit: 03-Nov-2020
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This isn't the proper thread, but since we are discussing the UK they also banned methoxetamine today.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 486 Joined: 01-Nov-2011 Last visit: 07-Aug-2012 Location: 127.0.0.1
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alert wrote:This isn't the proper thread, but since we are discussing the UK they also banned methoxetamine today. I had a feeling that would be coming very soon. I'm not in favour of criminalizing drugs, but if any deserve to be criminalized then I think MXE is definitely one of them. That drug terrified me in a way that no other drug has. -Я Ξ √ Ω L U T ↑ Ø N-
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 454 Joined: 28-May-2011 Last visit: 08-Aug-2013 Location: always on the move
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easyrider wrote:It's a slippery slope... And a sort of arbitrariness goes into defining hate speech. My previous post mentioned the restrictions of hate speech in the U.S. On topic, I think this shouldn't have come as any surprise. Individuals should act as if being monitored by authorities, as an act of precaution. There's no such thing as a free society, only in one's abstract thoughts. This is the most singular and poignant observation I have read ( to date) on this forum.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 454 Joined: 28-May-2011 Last visit: 08-Aug-2013 Location: always on the move
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The Traveler wrote:Would you people like it, if another person comes to our DMT-Nexus forum and:
* Starts a hate speech?
* Starts to insult individuals?
What do you think will happen when they start doing that here? And how do you think this is different when it is done in public? And what do you think makes it different when it is on another website? Less insulting? Less hateful? More right?
jbark stated it extremely well:
With your FREEDOM of speech comes RESPONSIBILITY: The RESPONSIBILITY to not take away the FREEDOM of other people. Hate speech takes away FREEDOM of others, you stigmatize people and with that you are lowering their life standards.
It's what worries me a lot with people who think they have a "right" to something: they just go ahead doing their thing and forget that they have to life together with ALL the other people. Why do these people think they are of a higher standard and that they do not have to take other peoples feelings and freedom into account?
Really, with any FREEDOM comes RESPONSIBILITY, if you cannot take that responsibility then you are not worth that freedom either.
Kind regards,
The Traveler I agree with your observations Traveler. But in the real world people slag each other off regardless of race or creed or social status. If I'm an affluent western white ( which I am) and I joke about pale pot bellied westerners on a beach resort(for instance) Is this hate? Should I be punished? But if I make similar jokes about another ethnic group on the same resort, then I need to fear the full force of the law? Are we not indirectly inferring a superior status by deliberately curtailing our own free speech? This post polarised so quickly, I fear another forum would be more appropriate. But make no mistake, social memes will be hijacked by the mercantilist elite ( and for their own purposes).
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"No, seriously"
Posts: 7324 Joined: 18-Jan-2007 Last visit: 09-Feb-2025 Location: Orion Spur
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arcanum wrote:I agree with your observations Traveler. But in the real world people slag each other off regardless of race or creed or social status. If I'm an affluent western white ( which I am) and I joke about pale pot bellied westerners on a beach resort(for instance) Is this hate? Should I be punished? But if I make similar jokes about another ethnic group on the same resort, then I need to fear the full force of the law? Are we not indirectly inferring a superior status by deliberately curtailing our own free speech? This post polarised so quickly, I fear another forum would be more appropriate. But make no mistake, social memes will be hijacked by the mercantilist elite ( and for their own purposes). You are now moving the discussion toward the content of speech and at which point a speech is hateful. That is another discussion where it is very clear that it is impossible to draw clear lines, especially when you have to take into account the context in which the speech is made. So for each case there is a base to base comparison. That however does not change what I wrote. If people want the freedom to say what they want, then they also have to carry the burden of responsibility. If people cannot handle that burden then they should not carry that freedom or face the consequences. The fact that there are other people out there doing bad things is never an excuse to not do the right thing yourself. Kind regards, The Traveler
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 454 Joined: 28-May-2011 Last visit: 08-Aug-2013 Location: always on the move
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[/quote]
You are now moving the discussion toward the content of speech and at which point a speech is hateful. That is another discussion where it is very clear that it is impossible to draw clear lines, especially when you have to take into account the context in which the speech is made. So for each case there is a base to base comparison.
That however does not change what I wrote. If people want the freedom to say what they want, then they also have to carry the burden of responsibility. If people cannot handle that burden then they should not carry that freedom or face the consequences. The fact that there are other people out there doing bad things is never an excuse to not do the right thing yourself.
Kind regards,
The Traveler[/quote]
It's futile to argue this further with the host of a forum I respect greatly.
But I want that freedom to say what I want, if I don't have that freedom, then what is freedom? Something allocated to me by a higher authority?
It's ironic that i should find myself in such a discours, for I am no racist or hater, simply an advocate of free speech. As for "bad things" "Good things" who am I to judge?
To cut to the chase, it's your forum, you call the shots.
Best regards
Arc.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 1711 Joined: 03-Oct-2011 Last visit: 20-Apr-2021
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arcanum wrote:But I want that freedom to say what I want, if I don't have that freedom, then what is freedom? Something allocated to me by a higher authority? Not necessarily. It's simply about the fact you are not alone. I learnt as a child that my freedom ended where the others' freedom starts. That doesn't solve the problem of deciding where is that frontier exactly traced, but makes clear that freedom is not absolute. I mention it because you replied as if you wanted that "absolute" freedom. Be it of speech or not. "The Menu is Not The Meal." - Alan Watts
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 486 Joined: 01-Nov-2011 Last visit: 07-Aug-2012 Location: 127.0.0.1
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It's also worth reflecting on the fact that none of us can ever be "free" in the absolute sense, since regardless of who we share the world with we are all constrained by the laws of physics... we are not free to walk through walls or fly unaided. Absolute freedom is impossible. The thing about freedom of speech is very tricky. Of course there does need to be a balance between our freedom to say what we want and other people's freedom not to have their lives destroyed by the words of another. A lot of the time though it feels we are told we have "freedom of speech" but in fact we are only free to say what certain people decide is acceptable... and these choices are not always based on protecting people from hate speech. Take super-injunctions (a UK law) for example, these are forced onto journalists and are very rarely about protecting anything that deserves protection, they are about hiding things from us. Arcanum I think we DON'T have freedom of speech, but I don't think that freedom of speech is as great as it is made out to be... for the same reasons as why it is not desirable for people to be "free" to shoot people. We do have freedom of speech in one situation though... when we are alone. If you are alone then you are free to say absolutely whatever you like. It is only when you are saying it to others that their freedoms (freedom from hate speech etc) come into the equation. -Я Ξ √ Ω L U T ↑ Ø N-
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You do not have to see alike, feel alike or even think alike in order spiritually to be alike
Posts: 703 Joined: 24-Aug-2011 Last visit: 10-Jul-2014 Location: USA
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There is a distinct difference in being free to believe what you want and speak your mind, and making a verbal(online or in real life)attack on someone, one can for instance can express bigotry in many forms, say a man feels superior to a woman, he can speak his mind of it too. But when he assaults a woman verbally he has broken the law. A person can belive homosexuality is wrong, but it is a persons freedom, if then he makes an attack that is a different story. This is just an example of the line that has been blurred here. I live in a place were bigotry is very much alive, I've experienced the damage it can cause. Many psychologist feel verbal abuse is far more damaging than physical abuse. I feel this is true as well. Toadfreak!
Travel like a king
Listen to the inner voice
A higher wisdom is at work for you
Conquering the stumbling blocks come easier
When the conqueror is in tune with the infinite
Every ending is a new beginning
Life is an endless unfoldment
Change your mind, and you change your relation to time
Free your mind and the rest will follow
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