Nobody said it is "much worse". I totally agree with you about the waste caused by war. Doesn't make your situation any more acceptable, though.

I'm not only saying this because I feel it is a waste of money, but also because it is sad to see people with potential feeding on society without contributing. I fail to see how one could feel satisfied with life, living in such a situation.

"why is me sitting on my arse accepting "handouts" so much worse than the people at the top, who use our tax money to fund wars?"

It isn't..but is not really a solution to the problem either. For one thing you are totally dependant on the government giving you money. With the way the economy is going I would sure as hell not want to be dependant on that right now.

If you dont want to work a normal 40+ hr a week job, then find a way to work for yourself. Make stuff and start selling it..maybe get a part time job on the side if you need to..but do SOMETHING.

You do not want to be dependant on the government to this degree man.

What do you plan on doing in 20 years? Do you plan on still getting gov checks like this? You give all your power away to these people..go do something for yourself..anything..even if it is just the smallest thing. You have to start small but the goal should be for you to be comfortable in 10-20 years not still stuck in a choice between a crappy job you hate or getting welfare.

Thanks. I will take this on board. I am not looking for acceptance, I am looking for other people's opinions... and I appreciate yours

I get what you are saying, but really even if I was working my ass off and earning my money, that would all completely fall apart at the same time as the government fell apart... when it all goes arse over tits then I think it is gonna be every man for himself, working or not working really wont factor into it... or perhaps I'm just being paranoid, lol.

What's the use of living if I know one day I will die?

Don't do it because it will make you happy one day. Walk the path because it is worth it in and for itself.

Do it because you will learn new thing, make new experiences, feel more complete by being more autonomous and because it will make you grow.

Beside, what makes you so sure that the system will fall in your lifetime?

Look man, I don't want to be down on you. Hell I don't even know you.
But the truth of the matter is this. You are depressed because your not doing shit.
The human mind utterly despises a void. From what you described it sounds like you
are living in a pretty dark place right now. There is only one solution. Change your mind.

You are literally the universe waking to the fact that it is aware of itself. Do you honestly think
that there is anything you can't achieve? You can do it all. Pick something and go to school for it.
Find away to carve out your own piece of the world pie.

Also please don't think I don't see the shame and fallacy in societies around the world today. I do. However I also realize that it isn't going to just up and change. I have a limited time on this planet. I can spend it depressed, angry, and broke by fighting the system, or I can adjust my views to the reality of the world I inhabit and get down to the business of finding my own personal calling in life. If you simply do that everything else will work itself out.

For sure I was hard on you, but only because I know for a fact that the potential inside you is literally unstoppable. Just make up your mind and set your course.

Peace

I like to work it enables my family to live in a way im proud of..
im very competitive i like when the going gets tough..
i never cared who wants to sit on the couch! it gives me more room to move.
it gives me health and wealth and a sense of well being and enables me to help others
and i have a few that need the help. that would take a job quick if offered.
if you are not creating something anything? imo your lost...
the real question is why you asked? i think because you know you have more to offer
then hanging on the curb,or couch...the day will come when you understand that your wasting
time to become the best you possible...goodluck

In germany we have an idea called
unconditional income-model

It sais you get paid enough to live your life and do the things you want.
But - you can always contribute something.

I'm pretty sure that most of the guys would change their attitude towards work.
+ the independance of money gives room to express ones real talent and returns the power to the people.

"I get what you are saying, but really even if I was working my ass off and earning my money, that would all completely fall apart at the same time as the government fell apart... when it all goes arse over tits then I think it is gonna be every man for himself, working or not working really wont factor into it... or perhaps I'm just being paranoid, lol. "

no I think you do have a point there and I agree. I think that in general people are too dependant on the government etc. This is why I have spent alot of time in the last few years learning about wildcrafting so I know the wild foods in my area, as well as getting into gardening. Growing my our food is a *very* big priority for me and my gf..so we put alot of energy into these things. We are lucky enough to have at least some space to dedicate to that though, while people living in some inner city condo might not. One good thing I do see in the city is commuity gardens..but these are small and not available to everyone atm..

We got out of the city 3 months ago becasue living there just does not support where we want to be in the future at all. Getting away from that was a great thing..

You can not just become sulf sustainable in a day.. It takes time and happens in small steps.

Im wondering how old you are phog? I never really worked permanently until I was 24, Jobs here and there like construction work but it was always temporary and i didnt like it anyway, good exercise right enough. My dad and his mate were the same as are a few friends, comes a point where if you want freedom you have to do something for money and most get to that age mid 20's ime

Some people just aren't cut out for working and would be happier with no money and no job. I dont think there sad ad pathetic though just not for them and it's their choice, life might be a struggle and a bit boring as you can't have the freedom to choose to do some things but tats up to them. Easy target the poor when people say things like my taxes pay for that, taxes also pay for guns and bombs you don't have a say on what your taxes get spent on or how much taxes they take.

Im hoping to start a new job where I only need to work 6 months of the year because I don't want to work generally, the other 6 months I'd like to make music, hopefully in a tropical paradise, this is the plan as I have no desire to get a mortgage where im forced to work for what the rest of my life for some house, not for me I'm afraid! I couldn't just doss around for ever, working does bring structure and rewards not just financially so six months of great money would suit me, can but dream eh?

dont listen to these guys. as some one who feels the same except is not on unemployment because iv always felt like this and refused a normal 9-5 for what ever way i could find money. im a 23 year old college educated white guy who feel like why should i waste my life doing what is instructed of me (ie get a house have a job get married have kids) i feel like its all BS we as humans lived for thousands of years building their own houses growing their own food and if they didnt they died. you sold what u grew or produced to pay for what u wanted. so what the gvt wants to give u money idont care if u pay ur rent or not its the gvt fault for giving u the money.i cant stop them.

your not alone just most of us 20 somethings just got a job and "grew up" i dont think thats growing up thats having a way to get money. but the rest of us know why should we waste our lives like our parents did buying into the american dream one of my fav. quotes is "the funny thing about the american dream is you have to be asleep to believe it." im not going to waste my time being utterly miserable chasing a fantasy.

people like us just know its not going to last much longer with out a major change (one that none of us see comming anytime soon) so why waste our lives doing what we are told insted of what we want!

Sorry if this comes off as harsh, and its not just directed at you but at several people in this thread, but I think you guys need to really study some history and see what life was like for a large percentage of the worlds populations throughout history. Unless you are comparing someone say born into a place like Rwanda now with someone born into royalty in the past, you almost guaranteed have a better, easier, and significantly more free life now than most people did in the past.


Edit: I posted this thinking this was in the 'do any of you feel this way' thread, and it was largely aimed at posters in that thread saying life in the past was better.

I dont totally agree with you there. I do to an extent. There is some obvious luxuries to modern living but it does have it's downside.

While life may have been alot more physically dangerous long ago, having to deal with waring tribes, wild animals, disease(well we still have enough of that) etc, we also had IMO a deeper collective sense of meaning.

Mythology is something that we have lost and are paying the price IMO..and this is not a science vs spiritual thing at all. We have science and that is great and does have it's use...but the way we are brought up from the very beginning, they way the world and existance is explained to 99% of the population in this culture just leaves a hole IMO. The ironic thing is that if most people truely understood what alot of serious scientists understand they would probly drool in awe of how much of a miracle this all is.

Sure, alot of people here have a deeper and more meaningful outlook, but most if not all of the people here posting have also taken tons of psychedelics and spent alot of time reading philisophical and esoteric literature etc..most people have not and really believe that they have all descended from a bang, from which entropy took it's course and that there is no other real meaning to anything..and thats it.

I think people in this world are lost, and this is a dead world. Some people have awoken and are now walking around awake in a seemingly dead world.

Long ago we had very elegant myths that explained to us the origions of creation, the meaning of existance and also served to instill a common sense of morality and integrity. It does not matter that these stories are mere metaphores..so is poetry and music and art..but do we really want to live without all of that? Imagine a world free from any metaphorical level of expression?

This is what I see this society heading towards. Are we there currently? No. We still have art and we still have music etc..but we have lost alot as well.

I really doubt that there was the current level of depression and suicide in tribal societies that we see among western society today..

What we lack is an certain level of elegance and grace in the way that we choose to relate to the gift of life..and I personally think that that ends up effecting everthing else we do. It is a psychological disorder we carry and continue to pass on. The encouraging thing is that many people do seem to be realizing this and trying to do something about it.

i dont want easier i want to live the way i want not the way im told.im not making any comparisons just saying that im not happy with the way we are told to live our life and just going along with it.

iv always gone against the current its who i am. and if u think us americans are free were not any more free than the Chinese and to me my freedoms are almost given back to me when im alone in the woods. their is no one to say dont do this, u need to get a job pay taxes. its me and if i wana eat i have to find it or kill it. if i want to be warm i have to get the wood myself if i dont ill freeze and go hungry.

to me its 1000x better than living in a apartment paying rent waking up every day just to go to a job where i get paid much less than i should. given money that has NO VALUE besides what i place on it.

it wasnt harsh or taken the wrong way. but in the sense of history i dont see where im wrong.we lived so long as independents if u didnt help ur self no one would help you. then all of a sudden (ww1 and ww2 and the great depression ) where it became no dont farm your own land to feed your family, go get a job helping produce things to make our GDP higher and use your pay to feed put a roof over and put clothe ur family.

i just found out my great grand father was a 1 armed Russian immigrant who took care of him his wife and 9 kids bundling news papers. if i lived in a time like that where it was possiable to support ur family i might have a different outlook but when i walk through Manhattan around the same place where he lived and i see signs all over that say " condos starting at 3.9 million" 3.9 million more than ill ever see.

I really wasnt referring to life being more dangerous in the past as much as I was talking about freedom. We collectively have more freedom now than ever before. Different societies operated in different ways, but most of them were very limited in the freedoms people had.

I agree with a lot of what you say about our current sense of meaning and lack of depth of the lives of most people, but the difference between now and in the past is that we now have much more of a choice of our lifestyle. If you want to live a hollow superficial life where all you care about is material possessions, you are free to do it. If you want to pursue a spiritual path, you are also free to do that.

I dont by any means think we live in a perfect society now, and we have a lot of work and long way to go, but honestly I think we are on the right path in many ways.

well in some ways we have more freedom but I mean that also just allows people to be stupid dumbasses IMO, and this is part of the whole "american dream" thing. People tend to take the whole "free will" thing so far that they think they can do whatever they want..you see this with corperations forewarding environmental devistation at an alarming rate so very few can profit..and you can also observe this at a smaller individual level where some people feel they are entitled to just throw trash on the ground or are too lazy to recycle etc. We do get to enjoy certain freedoms in this society but IMO those also come with a certain level of responsibility, a responsibility that I see many people of all ages not living up to at all..so there are 2 sides to that whole thing as well..

We have also lost many freedoms in this society, in fact one of the most intimate freedoms we have..the freedom to think and experience whatever we want without harming anyone else.

Sure, religion has always attempted to controll and brainwash people in this way..but the extent to which this goes on today in our apparently "civilized" world is by no means any better really..we have privitized prisons set up as slave labour workcamps for anyone who commits "drug crimes" becasue of the "war on drugs"..large organizations like the FDA trying to regulate eveything under the sun..we are plugged into a grid system like never before with the ability to monitor and controll the population in ways that were just not possible in the past..and that is *very* alarming as I dont feel personally that the individuals and organizations who are in power are at all mentally competant enough to controll that system without abusing that power.

Freedom is a funny thing and has been sold to people for too long now as a way to controll people and alot of people have this funny idea that the western world is the land of the free etched into their brains. This discussion always ends up with these stupid comparisons between western people and people living in africa. It was the ideals of amrahamic reliogiosity that did that to africa... The west is a culture founded on ambrahamic religiosity, reguardless of how far removed people think we have become from all of that..the foundational pillars of this culture are built on it and for that to change the whole thing has to come apart and change the way it looks.

I fully agree with you. Somehow, I feel that part of what Jamie is saying here is true, but is actually true because of that freedom that we have. As humans, we don't always know what to do with that freedom. It reminds me a lot of the nihilisme Nietzsche talks about.

I feel that nihilism, although a difficult phase to go through, is a necessary step to take if we want to grow as a group and as individuals. Only after coming to terms with the lack of meaning given by our modern society can we be free to create ourselves according to our own desires. And it is truly, in my opinion, the blessing of our era.

I do agree with Jamie that many people see life as devoid of any meaning. Although, I'm wondering if maybe he is not idealising the past a little bit. Sure, society was pushing forward some myths and spiritual symbolism. Still, I'm not sure if it really was better than we have now (humans are still humans). I somehow doubt that being given a meaning by someone else necessarly makes you happier or more complete. Also, I don't agree with his view that we are somehow lacking this meaning. The problem is not the lack of meaning, it is the fact that different cultures are being melted together and we don't know where to look for truth; for our truth. There is still plenty of metaphoric language, poetry and beauty. Just look at the art we have now! I'm personally a huge fan of sci-fi with a spiritual twist, or visionary art...if it isn't great mythos, then I don't know what it is!

Most people do not like to work. Some people are lucky or driven enough to find a way to make a living doing what they love, therefore it does not feel like work. You don’t necessarily have to work a 9-5 for the "fat cats".

Right now while you have some free time and your basic needs met, why not do some research to find a job that you might enjoy?
Maybe a small, family owned business that has similar interest as you? Or a non-profit job working with abused and abandoned animals or children that need guidance?


"I am aware that my situation is actually very fortunate compared to the rest of the world. I am in no real physical danger,Where as a lot of the world live in constant suffering and the imminent threat of violence."

It’s nice to know that you realize that you are very fortunate and that other people don’t have it so easy. Imagine someone from a third world country that has lived their whole life in violence and suffering.
What if they were put in your shoes? Do you think they would sit around and “Sponge”? Or do you think they would be so thankful to have their needs met for a short time so they could get stable enough to met their own needs?

You don’t necessarily have to "sponge" from society to keep these values that you have. There are other ways to "live off the grid". Do some research about becoming self sustained, Or communities/communes that are self sustained.
You actually have so many options if you really want to change your life.

I understand the feeling of not wanting to subscribe to the modern life of a slave, but if I understand correctly your current situation has you a bit torn because it is not fulfilling your other needs (mental,emotional etc..) either. Right?

Spend this time you have, while you still have it, researching ways to find this middle ground (under the radar, off the grid, self sustained. Etc..)
Be creative about it! there are 7 billion people on the planet, so 7 billion different ways to live a life.
Figure out what you love/want to do and do it. Then find a way to contribute to the world with it.


I do not feel it is morally expectable for you to live off tax money unless you NEED it.
I understand sometimes we all might a little help. But while you are receiving the help maybe you should be planning on a way to make your life more self sufficient?



"There is a Buddhist saying, "one robe, one bowl"... according to certain Buddhist principles the most ethically sound way to live is by accepting what is given by other people..."

While I understand this concept, and think it’s great. I think you maybe your failing to understand that tax payers are not "giving" this money to you. It is actually taken from them by force. I think that most people would prefer to have this money go only to the people that NEED it. Not the ones that abuse the system.


I hope that you find that middle ground.
Where you can contribute and be self sustaining but not have to give up on your values.

Search for it. Do not give up and you will find it.

Oh yea.. when you DO find it, let me know because I am searching for the same thing.

..one thing i know is that there is a lot more billions of $ corporate welfare handed out to companies (by governments from often exploited workers' tax) than to unemployed individuals..
.

Tony -consider yourself a lucky man and take full advantage and live a stress free life.what state are you in that gives a man welfare ? I might be moving there.lol