This is my first night here but, what is conversation without "opposition, scrutiny, doubt, or superiority" as you say? Mutual masturbation. An exploration of ideas without scrutiny or doubt is the same as the exploration of a pure blank white eternal space without a spec of darkness to provide reference... In other words, nothing. Krishnamurti's point about conflict was nothingness.

OP, you are a dirty hippy... And not the cool kind of hippy who will get high with and share a beer with you while talking about how crazy this journey of life is... No, you're the hippy who 'knows things' and 'knows' that other people don't 'understand' the things that you and you alone 'know' and that explains the problems with the world...

Here is my proof. It's in the pudding as they say.

You speak and pose questions yet have a well conceived notion of what an acceptable response may be. So I (have/and) am going to respond in a way you will probably find ugly. Because if you can't appreciate the beauty of things that are outside of the realm of what you understand as 'beautiful', we can not play together. How could you NOT debate someone in the middle of a dmt experience who was lucid enough to debate their own experience with another? Not doing so is to deny the two of you a great mutual opportunity for deeper understanding.

And as far as an artist who is upset by some dick coming up and painting a giant penis on his canvas, well, I'd say get a fucking studio and stop painting in public. Drop your ego, observe your surroundings. If you're painting an inner vision, do it in your house. If you're a stupid hippy who thinks the world should be nothing but flowers and free love and wants the rest of humanity to reflect his own ignorance back onto his vest with permanent markers... Well... Try mastering lucid dreaming. Art is not for you friend.

I appreciate your Utopian notions... but NO. We CAN NOT. "We" are not fictional or philosophical characters, we are human-beings! And just because you may have come to a special understanding or transcendence of a particular flaw does not mean it is gone.. or wrong...

If a friend of mine said what you've said while on DMT I would happily slap him in the face to connect them back to reality.

effigy11, you may have some points but please try to follow our attitude and avoid ad-hominen attacks, using a more respectful tone when you disagree with others. Constructive criticism is good, attacks and offenses are not.

This is beside the point, but I don't believe lucid dreaming appeals only to narcissists (not saying the OP is one as I don't know him/her). I've known several people who are proficient lucid dreamers who are very empathic and compassionate people.



"Reality" is relative. It's all perception. I consider what I experience while on DMT and in lucid dreams to be just as real as anything else.

I can't say I know this. But I think the point your hoping will get across Effigy is that while it's nice to think everyone can get along, having insensitive Dicks (excuse my terminology) in the world might always be necessary.

Growth will probably be more comfortable when everyone's feelings are taken into consideration, but there's a small chance it can happen in a burst when a person blurts something out without thinking it through. There's the possibility the other might take the insensitive remark and turn it into something useful.

Maybe this is right, It's just not typically as direct as being considerate in my opinion.

My bad that whole reply was based on a bad interpretation.

I think what your saying does have value I guess it's my fault for taking Enki's post as a request rather than an unrealistic expectation of everyone.

Quite the social butterfly

One pointed

Sounds safe to me

I believe there is nothing without something, but not that I know anything about zen, hope thats entertaining enough. I also believe even nothing is something, but lets not get psydtracked

Do you know what your problem is? Are you calling me materialistic? If so, that is all very well - I truly do respect the material, without it I would not appreciate the word made flesh. What is "OP"?


Not that I wouldn't also appreciate everything else, once I focused in puke in a mop bucket in my warehouse after an after-party, saw a stick figure in a circle made by someone spitting into it. So I painted a picture of it on the wall, it was beautiful to me. your response is no less beautiful than spit in a mop bucket of puke. To me its about focus (coagula) and letting go (solvet), and I don't eat pudding.
...and you have never done this in your life? I wont tell people things that I think I know, rather I will respect that they have come to, or are coming to their own perspective on the matter.

Is this how your treating strangers? a group of like minded individuals? friends? family? I hope you're not so hard on yourself.

well they do say beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so fine, you can't come to my birthday party

I could NOT bother people by holding space in a respectful and open, responsible manner. Sure I've spoken with people who choose to talk during their trip, but usually there's a good space for listening and a harmonic outcome in my experience. During a traditional ceremony however, only the shaman tends to speak, intentionally, during the ceremony, and after there is a lot of gratitude being expressed by key members of the circle. But you're right, it must be addressed by the responsible person(s), we can't just let someone freak out. Is debate the best word choice? I have seen one shaman tell someone to keep his sacred geometry drawings put away in the medicine circle. The guy started crying, but still chose to participate.

I'm starting to think we're on the same page

it was an experiment, and if I had another vest like that I would screen the artists properly to see what they would draw first.

What is art?



The word 'but' apparently negates the statement made, but some people are aware of this. How do I know you aren't just a figment of my imagination? What particular flaw was your deixis referring to? I've never known a 'shaman' healer to slap anyone. Only person slapped me during a trip was an entity who appeared in 3 quick frames, but I didn't even feel it, and the point of that was between my own crazy daze.

I've heard one define an artist as someone who elicited response in the observer. You seem to be telling me I'm not an artist, while at the same time eliciting a response, which exemplifies me as an artist. Keneth Grant, who writes about occult(hidden) tantric history, outlined ten ways of stirring kundalini, one was art, and one was aggression/anger/violence. All leading to rapture of kundalini even if in an unnoticeable sense apparently, not that I'm trying to be that kind of artist. Another method is through trance for example, we are all hypnotized - take language. To me language learning follows the structure of hypnotic trance. It also happens to be a tool for further hypnosis.

Besides your strengthening of my standpoint as an artist you also seem to be judging me, though I wouldn't say for sure what is going on, because I'm not claiming to be all knowing. I will not however stoop to the level it appears as though you have gone to by blatantly insulting me, can we not make this win win for both of us? I forgive you for how I think you come off, and forgive myself for not being so well received by every single person. I do my best to make each interaction positive for all.
If I'm a narcissus, I would be the exception to the rule, due to my altruistic stand point - rooted in my the visions (which may all be narcissistic technically, though that belief doesn't work for me).

We have time for what we love, so you must really love me for spending so much time writing me a response test. No, I wouldn't be true to myself if I let myself assume that. Congratulations on your choice of art form, to each their own. I know myself better than anyone else, so why judge others?

Why do I ask is it possible? Not only because I'm hypnotized, but primarily out of love actually. The paragraph I wrote was to be in support of that intention. Here's another supportive experience:
Once I gathered about 10 willing explorers of the inner mysteries and asked them all to pick 2 colors. Some people chose one, knowing that the color chosen would dictate the order the people were to vaporize spice. Everything was going very well, we did violet last. During violet the one and only person who chose to launch during this color blasted on into his journey, and another man started doing this really annoying breathing sound with between his teeth and lips. It really pissed of the guy on his journey, noticeably, so I took the guy out of the room to talk to him, and he said "I'm just showing him how to breath." OooWhaad everr. The violet journeyer had been sober from booze for 6 years, and after this he never wanted to use spice again, and fell off the wagon - it was really sad to see him loose it in his life like that. Considering he chose violet, he really had the greatest expectations in my own opinion, not that this interpretation holds any weight. Anyway "Violet man" then labeled "breathing teacher" as an energy vampire, a title which appropriately stuck with that individual until he was no longer accepted in the circle, not that people didn't already feel this way. I still accepted him and know what he went through in his life - his very sad life.

perhaps I'm in denial? Jung says only others will point this out about someone. Well we also have to be willing to accept our shadows and offer them unconditional love, he says, if we are to merge with them in the individuation process leading to the self. "karma" some define. Okay, maybe I think I'm a no it all. I forgive myself, and try to be less condescending and more compassionate, sensitive, and considerate. Less egotistically denying of any accusations of this non legally binding nature. Lets agree to agree

I'm not sure this is a very psychedelically inspired post. If psychedelics only teach us one thing, it's that you don't control shit when it comes down to it. Everyone has their own views, be it one that inspire painting of dicks or critical analysis. People will do what they do and it's our responsibility to respect them.

true that, and I wouldn't be here if not for psychedelic inspiration. I feel egotistical when in denial...I think I too am entitled to my views and only want to stand for what I psychedelically believe. yes.. respect for all

Maybe its impossible. If dmt is so different for all, then no experience is the same. And no one can ever agree on what they see. So what is communication for if cant really connect to what others say or mean? There will be disagreement always and it cancel reason for discussion. So everyone talk about their own thing and everyone can only say 'interesting'. Cant come closer together than that? No drug make you smarter that is certain. Who can say what is real inspiration from psychdelic experiences? So how can anyone be ever offended? When they are offended, it is their own fault.

You're awesome Benny, I resonate with what you're saying somewhat. Its as though some people stand up only to be mutually exclusive, like another form of escapism is to cancel out with someone. I like that you consider the extreme. Not just DMT, the human experience in general is to each their own, and some peoples own happens to be a bit sociopathetic, not that I can blame people who have to live in todays society. What is communication? Hypnosis! A mutual form of hypnosis which diverges in artistic ways that don't seem to stray far from the norm most of the time, like how even humans share 98% DNA with the rest of the life on the planet. We're not so different either.
Psychedelic just means that it satisfies the psyche, this could be in a number of ways, including simple aesthetics. I think many people want an extreme answer for the meaning of psychedelic inspiration, but I think bad trips that put people in danger or lead them to be in a viscous cycle of escapism is going a bit far, yet I respect the decision to believe in that path in their own positively interpreted way. Being self righteous should be a good thing, but when it interferes with someone else's happiness or empathy or personal mount everest that they are climbing - its so nice to be encouraged for living your life and making a statement.