IMO one of the best posts you've ever made, vovin! Thanks for putting these important ideas so succinctly into one place. I agree with you, and I think these are excellent, valuable, and very USEFUL insights.

Why do people assume anyway that people are using DMT for enlightenment? I just work with ayahuasca because I feel it opens up a greater dialoge between myself and the biological environment I live within..and I dont mean that in any weird esoteric sense. What I mean is that I see DMT as a sort of interspecies exopheremone reguarding how it relates to humans. I dont think that is the only role it plays in the eco-system, but still it does open up a means of communication..some animal might eat a DMT containing plant and get sick, or mescaline cacti etc..to them that is a clear communication between their own body chemistry and the plants chemistry to maybe stay away from that plant..

For humans we might consume DMT plants or mescaline cacti and the neuro-chemical communication going on is interpreted quite differently and we might enter ecstatic states of percieved unity with the ecosystem or others or view nature and the planet in a very new or unique way..

I work with ayahuasca not because I seek enlightenment, but becasue I seek a more rich animistic level of perception. I would say that I seek light, but I dont confuse that with "enlightenment" as the term is popularily understood.

I also dont agree that this is something you necessarily do on your own, or should seek to do on your own. I do believe that endogenous visionary experiences occur but that is not my point..and a cup of ayahuasca is sure as hell no shortcut.

When I hear people saying that DMT is just a tool etc, well I tend to agree it is a tool..but at the same time do you think the same way of food and vitamines, minerals and medicines?

What if you no longer continued to ingest seratonin precursers from the environment?

This is what I am trying to get at when I use the term "animistic"..that we are part of a much much greater biological system and always have been..it is our origion. In a very literal way we are children of the trees and our relation to the complex plant phytochemistry of our environment is what has always driven our evolution on this planet and allowed us to thrive..even for mammals that eat other mammals..it all starts with the plants..

This is something I do not see any way around..unless we want to get into something like breatharianism..which I do not.

I dont think we can ever say something like, "DMT can not make you enlightened"..or "DMT can make you enlightened"..first..wtf is enlightenment? second, to even say such things almost means you may be missing the point..I dont think it is at all what a person might do or not do, it is HOW they do it.

It is how a person chooses to approach that dialogue that changes everything.

This is why, personally I dont smoke DMT anymore..at least I have not smoked it for months. I found it to be a lesser form of DMT use for me personally compared to ayahuasca. I get far far more from ayahuasca than I do changa or pure DMT..it is just the approach that works much better for what I personally wish to acheive..and maybe someone else might be better suited to gain whatever it is they seek from smoking DMT or hell, shooting ketamine..I dunno.

I think that anyone who adopts a truely "spiritural(for the lack of a better term) approach towards DMT ends up naturally integrating that practice into a greater practice anyway of which DMT is only 1 part however great a part that may be. This is what I see alot of in the ayahuasca community..a practice of drinking ayahuasca that is imbedded in a larger paradigm of ecological communion. Of course there are always exceptions and there always will be.

At times I find it very odd that people get so caught up in trying to be enlightened..only at times though.

Look around at where you are. It does not get any better than this. Eden is all around, you dont need enlightenment to see that. Grow a plant or something and meditate on that.

I suggest you find someone who is in the process of dying of old age. Sit with them for as long as you are able, be still, and pay close attention.

Repeat as they continue their transition.

jamie,

I think you may not be accounting for the difficulties of communication: it's difficult (it's impossible) to say exactly what you mean (oops, I may have just done it with that statement--anyhow)...

...when people use the word "enlightenment" I take it they mean, from a broad perspective, the concept of the most complete possible human experience of perception, understanding, and meaning. With that very reasonable definition, it seems almost INSANE to say it's not interesting or worthy of seeking...if....one could instead have the privilege to live in a GARDEN.

Gardens are nice. Achieving the complete expression and manifestation of everything with positive meaning that a human is capable of experiencing is...nicer.

people seem to miss out on the full realization of how much of a miracle it is to even be here already when trying to chase after something like enlightenment. If you miss out on that realization than how can you expect to Achieve the complete expression and manifestation of everything with positive meaning that a human is capable of experiencing?

How can someone expect to reach that level when doing any one thing, including seeking enlightenment?

@gaiaphile... Thanks for the suggestion. Are there any books that would help me to figure out what I am paying close attention to exactly? I know people often have spiritual experiences at or near death, but I don't know how me watching that would help me to become enlightened.

@jaime: excellent to hear your perspective. Clearly, not everyone has the same goals. I suppose there is nothing wrong with that... As long as you are helping others as you enjoy whatever path you are on.

while I side strongly with Vovin on this, believing that a) there is no shortcut to spiritual growth and b) that neither DMT nor any other epiphany-inducing experience will cause instant and irreversible spiritual or personal progress, but only your personal effort, your will to overcome yourself as you were to be what you will be, in a continuous process of growth and development will get you moving towards what it is you want to move towards - I would like to know how you define enlightenment. It's a vague concept and probably everyone has their own idea of what it is - perhaps if we knew a bit better what it is you are looking for the answers here could elucidate your question a bit better.

But listen... don't get side-tracked by the flashy lights or promises of rewards... Life is already all around you! Participating in it with all your heart, with all the essence of your living energy may already be what you are looking for.

I'm sorry, I don't really understand that. "Wonder," and talk about "full realization of the miracle of existence" represent...nice feelings, I suppose. But I don't really know what they mean--other than a way of talking that sounds..."inspiring" in a vague way.

But I would imagine that a "complete expression and manifestation of everything with positive meaning that a human is capable of experiencing" would include a "full realization of the miracle of existence." Although I don't know what knowing that (or NOT knowing that) would get one.




Well, if you know the recipe, please pass it along to us! I wouldn't say that I know it, so I don't recall specifying that one had to do "one thing." Generally, however, people can really do only one thing at a time.

Stillness Speaks by Eckhart Tolle kinda addresses what one might be paying close attention to.

And it's not about witnessing the "spiritual experience" someone else has "close to death". It's more about seeing the person die. If you pay close enough attention, you may begin to perceive the tinyest changes in the progression toward death. With practice, such changes may be perceived upon us all. I have found this type of perception to be not granting of permanent enlightenment, but it certainly is illuminating. The "living progression to death" is the "spiritual experience" that we all share. Perhaps it's just a matter of being able to recognize it.


I'm spending my life trying to die gracefully

btw, suggestions are indeed for the "journey to reach". No claims to knowledge of ever actually reaching it are implied.

Not sure if this really adds to the topic but I heard someone say this recently and it really kind of touched me:

"we have evidence now a days that there is life before death!" (Eduard Punset)

Why focus on death or even what happens afterwards?
Personally I don't think death is anything special. It's the life you live before you die that is. But I guess whatever floats your boat.

Like been said before enlightenment isn't apart from everyday experiencing. There's nothing beyond direct experiencing. That's the case right now and it will always be the case.

It's a bit like you're trying to find awareness but all the while awareness is what sees this seeking going on. You're playing a game of not knowing you're that which you seek (kinda like self-hypnosis). The seeking isn't really a problem as such though, it's another expression of life.

A few vids that might be helpful:

http://www.youtube.com/w...edded&v=tGWyWYxrcIg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBUU4c-s8os

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaWfcrA6ByY

AllIsDistraction,

What you describe is AWARENESS. Enlightenment could be described (IMO) as COMPLETE awareness. Enlightenment could be described as an infinite deepening of awareness of the "miracle of existence." I would truly hope that anyone spurred to seek any non-fantastical notion of something referred to as "enlightenment" would already be well versed in experiences and exercises of awareness. The notion that "first" someone should appreciate the "miracle of existence" is...bizarre. It's like telling someone not to make a doctor's appointment for a checkup until they verify that they're alive--because doctors only see live patients. It's absurd.

I never said that anyone should "first" do anything. Please dont put words into my mouth.

This sums up exactly how i feel about this issue.

Don´t get me wrong, i deeply admire it that you seek for enlightenment.

The point is this: nothing is permanent. Even when you do reach a state of enlightenment, it will at some moment fade if you don´t keep practicing.

There is no answer to all your questions and the big challenge in life is therefore not to find the answer to all questions but to deal with a life that sometimes imposes questions on you that can never be answered.

Everyone has moments of enlightenment. Every person has moments where he will act in a totally selfless manner, where he will act out of pure compassion, pure concern for something/somebody else than himself.

But it is also true that everybody has dark moments as well. Moments where you would want to blame others for the way you feel, or where you give in to impulses that you would normally reject.

My point is that the challenge in life, and certainly when you want to be an enlightened being, is in exactly those DARK moments.

So you should not want to ban those dark moments out of your life (wich is what most people hope enlightenment will bring them) because firstly it is unrealistic and secondly it is exactly that desire that KEEPS you from enlightenment.

When you´re having a bad day, wishing you didn´t have bad days anymore would be actually what at that time prevents you from engaging in the challenges of life.

Embracing life with all it´s unenlightened moments is the way. Embracing all those dark moments instead of wishing for an enlightenment that would prevent any darkness, embracing the darkness as well...that´s when you are given a chance to grow.

It seems a lot of confusion is surrounding the term enlightenment, so I will provide my understanding of this phenomenon.

The reason for becoming enlightened is to escape the wheel of reincarnation, and/or help others to escape the wheel. People who seek enlightenment all seem to believe that the common theme of life on Earth is suffering, whereas the point of existence is to have permanent bliss. It is true that you cannot obtain permanent bliss on Earth, but non-seekers of enlightenment are apparently content with the ebb and flow of bliss and suffering that they currently enjoy. Perhaps these non-seekers do not consider the possibility that they are simply very lucky to have an enjoyable (and human) life in this incarnation. Personally, I have a fairly pleasant life, but I am intensely aware of the worldwide suffering, which keeps me from being fully happy. I hope to help others to escape the wheel of reincarnation one day.

If you seek enlightenment, invert your awareness from the outside world inward, such that "the seer becomes seen." This is what Mooji talks about, as well as Merrill-Wolff and many others. In other words, right now, if you are not enlightened, you do not know who you truly are. You know only your mind, but not your soul, or Self, or pure/bare awareness as Buddhists may call it. There are various ways of becoming enlightened, of course... and sometimes it may even happen without your trying (cf. Brother Lawrence, in The Practice of the Presence of God). But usually it takes many years of meditation and perhaps other techniques, like pranayama or certain mudras. Shaktipat is a shortcut that many have used, in which a master (or a plant?) gifts you with a glimpse of enlightenment. During the search for enlightenment, one can expect to pass through the kundalini syndrome, which lasts on average about 4 years (though with a large std. deviation), and is not pleasant. I have read that the kundalini syndrome is a result of insufficient preparation for the unlocking of kundalini energy--essentially, the insufficient dissolution of the ego.

Some here have said that the ego is necessary to survive in this world, and therefore there is nothing wrong with it. Actually, it is possible to survive without the ego, but only if others help to keep you alive by feeding you, etc, which often happens, because once you lose your ego and become enlightened, people begin to gather around you and bathe in your divine agape. But even if that does not happen (let's say you are in a cave and no one knows you are enlightened), it may not matter to the seeker, since physical survival is not their primary concern. Some enlightened souls have reportedly even been able to stop eating and drinking altogether, without any consequence.

You can call all of this fantastical, ridiculous, or whatever you want to. Or you can explore and discover for yourself the reality of this phenomenon, as I intend to do.

Hello moyshekapoyre,

your honest question shall receive an equal answer:

Substances won't make it permanent (Vovin) yet can make visible what is already permanent (Rgeular Dudess). Put your attention on what is always and so remain. Start with this as a daily practice and as time goes by everything should be clear.

"The reason for becoming enlightened is to escape the wheel of reincarnation, and/or help others to escape the wheel. People who seek enlightenment all seem to believe that the common theme of life on Earth is suffering, whereas the point of existence is to have permanent bliss. It is true that you cannot obtain permanent bliss on Earth, but non-seekers of enlightenment are apparently content with the ebb and flow of bliss and suffering that they currently enjoy. Perhaps these non-seekers do not consider the possibility that they are simply very lucky to have an enjoyable (and human) life in this incarnation. Personally, I have a fairly pleasant life, but I am intensely aware of the worldwide suffering, which keeps me from being fully happy. I hope to help others to escape the wheel of reincarnation one day."

I used to feel this way also, and was very much into buddhism. I was also raised in a home where the traditional idea of reincarnation was just basically accepted..my mother had books on the subject and watched shows about it and taught it to me..so the concept always just made sense to me as it was never really introduced as something foreign later on..

However, I then had an ayahusca experience one day maybe 2 years ago and it changed the way I have thought about and personally understood reincarnation completely. I now think personally that the whole idea of reincarnation as it is put forth in popular culture is a very shallow take on what really goes on.

What I experienced is the entire evolution of one single soul through the history of my family tree..we are the living reincarnation of our ancestors..and you reincarnate through your children..however..all the way back I was shown how the same can be said for the family tree of ALL life in the universe. I was also not just shown this..I lived it in a matter of seconds. I also experienced my own reincarnation as my future daughter.

Now, on some level any being born anywhere can still also be seen as my own reincarnation, because if you trace the lieage of life all the way back(if that even makes sense) EVERYTHING from that time on is a reincarnation of that thing..

You can then reincarnate multiple times while still living.. you through you children, your parents through you etc..the way I interpreted it is the genetic information is passed on but the ego is reset, yet we do still inherit some "karmic" imprints from the ego of the previous life..like you might inherit some anger problem etc from your father and now in this life you have the chance to work through that and grow, for your father is and was you on a soul level, just a different ego..at the same time we might have inherited karmic imprints on a species level passed on to us from our previous evolutionary forms..

Of course we do have individual levels to our own souls as well..at least that was another thing I was shown durring this experience..it is sort of like a paradox..but somehow it all works..

Funny though how this experience brought me deeper into an esoteric path, while at the same time almost shattering my previous esoteric take on reincarnation..before I had this idea that we all had some sort of individual souls(which I still do but not in the same way) and that maybe I was this or that person in another life..this experience showed me that at least part of what makes up our soul, and the world soul is very physical and tangible genetic information that is passed on..that is who we are and what informs us..and it is constantly evolving with us and being passed on so that we can continue to live and reincarnate..behind all of that is a larger oversoul though and in the middle somewhere of this whole process we do infact aquire individual souls..the whole thing is like a net or a web I guess.

This made me realize that the scientists are right, but that the more esoteric beliefs are not necessarily wrong either..

Maybe the trick to breaking this cycle is to remember being every other form you have taken throughout the history of the universe? Who knows..I dont know that was just what I experienced and it changed the way I see the whole thing.

I am not against someone searching for enlightenment either..but I do feel that with that term comes a whole lot of unnecessary baggage..I do seek higher forms of awareness but I dont focus really on being enlightened at this point..I would not know where to even start trying to do that. I just seek in general. I seek a greater level of connection and understanding of myself and the cosmos..I seek a world with more light..but like polytrip said everyone has their own darkness and that also is something that must be sought after in order to fully understand.

BTW..have you ever looked into darkrooming? Darkrooming is essentially a part of all of these ancient traditions and especially ones of the east..tibetan dream yoga is essentially darkrooming and I really do believe that darkrooming can awaken the same neurological events as something like ayahuasca..

Darkrooming is somethign I for sure intend to do in the future and think it would be a great practice alongside psychedelics and other tools on such a path.

moyshekapoyre, should this state you describe - if it can be called a state - be achievable, I don't think there is a short-cut, nor should there be. What you are looking for is something profound, something that will revolutionize every fiber of your being. To know who you really are! To break out of the karmic wheel! or all the other fun things you describe (regardless of my beliefs, which don't correspond to yours)- they are not just little achievements. These are high mountains to climb.

But if you want to revolutionize your spirit so, you have to be willing to actually do it. IME with much smaller steps than the ones your goal implies taking, it is not about the substance or technique you use but rather your readiness to proceed with the next step. If you are not taking it (the step), it usually (IME) means something within you is keeping you back. As long as you don't find what it is you cannot proceed. Psychedelics may be able to help you identify these things, help you confront them, but dealing with them is ultimately and always up to you IME.

Ask yourself, why are you not enlightened now? What is it that is keeping you from this state? Most likely there is nothing magical holding you back. Most likely it's just your own unwillingness to let go of the mode of thinking/being/feeling you have now, to replace it with desired one - the one that is as you call it "enlightened".

Can DMT help you towards this? Possibly.
Will it accellerate the process? Possibly - since it can give you ideas of other states of consciousness. This may assist you a great deal in finding the direction you must take with your personal work.
Will it make your path any easier? I highly doubt it.

The "Wheel of reincarnation" and "outside vs inside" are delusions. Enlightenment is utterly nothing other than the dropping of delusion and the instant recognition that nothing is not buddha nature. When there is no delusion we no longer falsely believe there is a wheel of reincarnation or outside vs inside--we no longer "exist" in those worlds (i.e., we no longer "believe" those worlds into "existence" ).

There are as many recipes for dropping delusion as there are people. In general, the buddha's advice was to lead a good and simple life (so as not to be distracted from your task, or create additional karmic hindrances) and to increase awareness--increase it to the extent that your delusion is apparent and drops away by itself (once delusion is RECOGNIZED it's no longer delusion).