Interesting, good question. Reading through the exchange here between Indoril, endless, et al.. but time is going to cut me short for now.

All I have to say is that fats are essential to the human diet, and from what little I understand, animal meat provides those in ways other tissues / products do not.

Nothing that is alive wants to die. We do consider our own individual existence and desires to be more important, except when they are not, as is the case with Altruism. Everything 'living' wants to survive, the food chain is nothing more than one long continuum to feed us with sunlight. Yes, it is all sunlight made manifest in order to sustain everything on this planet. In addition in a Primacy of consciousness universe your individual existence is no more or less important than any other aspect of it, including dirt or a rock.

How is something, anything you consume "less alive"? By who's standard of measurement? Gratitude, thanks, and appreciation is what one should extend to the life force that allows them to continue. Sadness is irrelevant. It is what is necessary, because otherwise you wouldn't be alive. Are you grateful to be alive? If you're not okay that you have to consume things that have a life force, then you are in disharmony with your very existence. Never a good state of being to be in.

I agree with you, it is not possible to kill with respect when necessity is not there. But it is necessary to eat, and everything I eat has to be killed, no matter whether it is plant or animal. Of necessity you must take its life-force in order to sustain yourself. Do you not see that your beliefs in a hierarchy of lifeforms is equally as dogmatic a particular belief about the way the universe functions?

The only possibility to live without killing something is to become a Breatharian, though very few if any have ever been able to achieve this.

To answer the original question of this thread:

Yes I eat any kind of meat, but of recent I consciously limit it.

Saidin,

I understand and respect where you're coming from. After being veggie for about 7 years, I spent about 3 months eating anything with this rational description of the experience of universal oneness. I kept getting a nagging from my heart that I was out of harmony some where in my life, and then I put some words on why, and then returned to practicing maximizing cruelty-free living. Now my heart and I are in deep harmony again.

The heart speaks from beyond our evolutionary needs. It does not care what our ancestors did, it does not care what we believe.


Basically, I consider two perspectives about reality to be true.

1) The universal. - Here there is no morality. Everything is God. Charles Manson acted divinely. Raping and torturing children is divine. Slavery is divine. Ripping flesh from women and wearing it as a suit is divine. Sacrificing virgins into a volcano is divine. It is also divine to help others, to care about individuals, to be sad, to be angry at injustice, to be stressed out about what one feels needs to be done. There is nothing one can think do or say which is not God - including saying that we are responsible to be compassionate to others.

2) The individual. - Here lies morality and compassion. Here the heart speaks to the individual as their deepest connection to the divine "off the cushion", and the heart cries loudly for compassion to individual life. Just because there have been great teachers who have not had this realization does not mean it's false.


Killing requires justification. Not killing does not. I've gone into some detail in standard of measurement of ways to define how to feel what has an individual life as well as a divine life in earlier posts.



If you think I feel this way you are not understanding the intention of my words.

Love and Peace

I very recently stopped eating meat. I would like to say that my reasons are based on morality, but this is not really the case. However I do feel sorry and guilty for all the suffering we put the animals we eat through. The meat industry basically functions like a business and this should not be the case. It's not necessarily about meat, but I like Socrates words that "some live to eat while others eat to live".

I assume you mean amino acids, which would be forms of protein and not fat. In any case, many people live on entirely vegetarian/vegan diets without health issues. There are even vegan body builders.

I really don't understand the moral objections to our meat eating behavior.

Honestly, I'd rather live caged up and fed constantly and live uncomfortably, than forever be in fear of what's lurking in the grass about to jump out, chase me until I make a mistake and then eat me while I'm still alive or rip my throat out and let me bleed to death.

The lives in nature for which you are saying we should respect, live in a world far more cruel to the subjects in it's carnivorous behaviors than we create for the subjects in ours.

"The lives in nature for which you are saying we should respect, live in a world far more cruel to the subjects in it's carnivorous behaviors than we create for the subjects in ours"

lol have you seen what goes on with factory farming? Kind of arrogant to assume that what we force on another animal is what they will like the best. If people want to eat meat, and be ethical about it that is fine..but to make a statement like you just made is silly when you concider the reality of factory farming.

Why do humans always assume they know what is best for others?

a breatharian? Surely everyone knwos thats not possible...

i quite enjoy meat. its the way off the world, we just happen to be top of the food chain. Ideally, the animal would live a nice life beforehand. If i had the resources available to me, i think this would be an avanue i would look into.

till then, it just has to be remembered that a chicken (for example) doesnt really have the conciouseness and awareness to really understand whats going on. I dont think they suffer to the extent some people believe. Is it even proven they have feelings?

Yeah, great reasoning. You just justified the invasion in iraq, the holocaust, the genocide on native americans, colonialism: We are morally allowed to do whatever we like.....because we can. Killing jews used to be the way of the world, for many europeans, during the 30´s. Stealing land and killing or subordinating the natives used to be the way of the world for europeans who invaded the america´s, asia and africa. Yeah, we europeans where just at the top of the food chain. The chinese will maybe be so within a decade or so, so i guess that you would think they would be morally justified then, to kill you and steal your childeren to sell them as sex slaves...i mean...top of the food chain...the way of the world...why bother then about any moral objections. Power justifies it all.

Do animals have feelings? Well, they have brains that function simmilarly to our brains. Same neural infrastructure, same neural mechanisms....they communicate, many animals have a primitive form of language, they behave emotionally.

Proving that someone else has feelings is almost impossible, but their behaviour has all the characteristics of emotional behaviour.

An animal would respond more or less the same as you would, when i would kill or injure you.

you just compared apples to screwdrivers. i don't see how a crusade against forefathers of today's conspirators has anything to do with consuming the flesh of primary consumers.

We know such an infinitesimal portion of what is actually possible, it is the height of hubris to think we know anything at all...thinking you know anything only limits you.

Do you have knowledge of every human who has ever lived? Perhaps a genetic mutation made this possible once, or more than once? There have been stories of breatharians throughout history, whether they are true or not, there is no way to know as I have not seen it myself. There was even a story of one within the past couple years in India. He spent 2-3 weeks in a hospital eating and drinking nothing during the whole time, his stool was analyzed and the doctors found nothing in it but dead skin cells. Skeptics say it's a fraud and we are all being played for fools for some reason. Perhaps. Others say it is true...

:Shrug:

Excellent, being in harmony with your heart is being in harmony with your true nature. I commend you for both hearing and listening to it! You are correct, it does not care what we believe.

I cannot agree with your two perspectives because the individual is in the universe, and the universe is within the individual. They are inseparable and cannot be divided. Where you see two perspectives, I only see one. Morality is a human invention, and is subjective. Right and wrong are human concepts and are subjective. The universe doesn't care about your or anyone else's morality, for all is divine, every choice, every action. You cannot run away from your divinity, no matter what you do. Everything that happens is perfect exactly as it is, and the universe expands exactly as it is meant to.

Compassion for individual life is a dualistic concept. The path of the heart lies in compassion for all life, all consciousness animate and inanimate. For in reality all is One, there is no other, there is no individual. Killing does require justification. I must kill to survive, whether it be plant or animal. I am justified to take life in some form so that I may continue to live in this illusion.

Life is life. There is no measuring stick, that again is right/wrong, better/worse, higher/lower dualistic awareness.

Namaste

The line of reasoning is the same: we are morally allowed to do X because we have the technological ability to do it. In that line of reasoning it doesn´t matter what 'X' stands for.

Saidin,

Thank you for the reply.

I agree with this, it's also a true perspective of the words it is discussing. My words also remain true, from what you have said I think it is old news for you how they are both true so I will not explain unless asked.


I understand the dislike of the word morality. It is most often used to describe a rigid belief system of right and wrong. Nonetheless, I do think morality is the closest word many people have to describe their heart, so only treating the word as a bad thing is a great misunderstanding.

Because of this I will use the word morality to mean having a connection to one's heart, letting the heart speak instead of thoughts and habits.
Of course if someone is following a belief system rigidly it will likely separate them from their heart. So we can then say morality is immoral, which is very fun and true.

But let me clarify again, I do believe a person cannot stay connected with their heart or reach anything greater without overcoming their moral belief structures.

I hope I have expressed my agreement with this already, I'm not sure there's reason to go much more extreme than ripping flesh from living women and wearing it for a coat . And anger and stress in trying to help others - for some reason this one gets the backseat in discussions on this topic lol.


This is the old argument. It is difficult to find a belief system to hold on to at these levels which does not immediately cause one to lose truth. Yet the strength of our survival minds require an "inoculation belief" to assist and guide us in recognizing our clinging. Personally, I think the reason the heart is so compassionate towards individuals, and all of the great teachers have exhibited this in their action even though not necessarily in their words, is because there is no human rational description of the universe that can be true. So we can say what we have said, but none of it truly reflects the truth of the entirety of the universe, which is much greater than piddly human ideas of what an individual or non-duality means. And when we meet an individual, if we are tuned into the universe, and into our heart, we do not want them to suffer as an individual. And we are unable to give a reason why.

I think you are using the word animate to mean what I mean with individual. I'm not very hung up on words and am fine with either. I'll quote myself from post 193 in this thread and replace individual with animated consciousness.



I have spent a lot of time in meditation with animals, plants, humans, and rocks over this question. Not meditating on the ideas, as that is very different, but with them. Over and over, as far as I can tell, my heart tells me animated consciousness has value unto itself, even though I do not understand it. And also, that there is "more and less" animation, though I also do not understand this and I find few people who are comfortable with this notion. I have spent a good amount of time studying complex systems and chaos, I think this may be why I am comfortable that there are tangible means of measuring such things.

I currently finalize this belief ( I intend that humbly with the negative connotations) for myself with a sort of Pascal's Wager which is not just one of the most incredible exercises in self-deceit for selfish reasons:

If nothing is hurt more by killing plants instead of animals,
There is no reason not to do so.

And, as proto-pax, onethousandk, and myself discussed starting on this post in this thread, there are plants which want to be eaten, and plants we can eat without killing them, which brings new complexity to the discussion.

Love and Peace

Oh, I neither like nor dislike the word 'morality', it is just a word. But as a word used to express a state of human awareness, it is entirely subjective. Your morality is not the same as mine, we might find common ground and agreement on some things, but this does not hold true for all things. For instance our discussion here about eating meat. Some find it moral, others immoral and both are right and both are wrong. What may be good to you, may be evil to another and vice versa, or any shade inbetween. I think the only term that comes close to expressing heart centered awareness would be compassionate wisdom, which in its pure form is blind. Everyone and everything in existence is learning lessons and expanding themselves and the universe as a whole, each has its own path to bring infinite awareness to All That Is. The very nature of the word morality is based upon duality and right/wrong. I understand how you are using it, but by doing so, even in the way you have, you trap your awareness in duality.

Following any belief system, no matter how rigid or supple, separates you from your heart. The key is to do what feels good, what brings you joy by following your heart, be a Pathfinder...don't believe anything, but rather know that your heart centered awareness will never lead you astray. Find that path so others may follow (if they choose), and now you have become a Wayshower.



Just because it is an old argument, does not mean it is invalid. The concept of all as the One (which by the way fits in perfectly with Big Bang Theory and quantum mechanics) seems quite rational to me. Do I believe it? No. Does it make rational sense to me? Yes. I agree that to try to understand the entirety of the universe, or try to make it fit nicely into a little box from our human perspective is absurd and fruitless.

I can give a reason why we do not want others to suffer from this perspective. Because that other is me, and I am the other, so their suffering is my suffering. I feel their suffering whether I am conscious of it or not and I do not want to suffer, except when I do want to suffer. Their suffering teaches them something about themselves and about me.



I suppose I am, except I am using it to include all plants, microbes, bacteria, anything that traditional science would consider "life". I am not taking away from the uniqueness of the human condition, nor that of life that has more developed consciousness, but rather elevating all other life (and even that which most don't currently consider to be life) to an equal state of value.

And it is far from meaningless, but exactly the opposite. Everything matters, because without it all we would not exist. The dirt under your feet are just as important for without the minerals contained within, your body could not regenerate itself. The air you breate fuels the cells and enables them to reproduce using the nutrients we take in from the atomosphere. You cannot separate yourself from the universe as a whole, 'living' and non 'living' matter. We and all life are in a constant state of flux, ever changing, ever adapting one portion of the universe to another. Life just is, and it is everything.

This life as a human isn't your first time around the block. Your individuated consciousness has been an atom, a rock, a cloud, a snowflake, a drop of water, plants, animals, etc... You have complexified over an unimaginable amount of time to your present level of aware consciousness, and it goes beyond from here. Our level of consciousness is akin to being a rock to what is out there...



Sitting and meditating in nature is precious. Try an experiment...and perhaps this is what you are already doing. Try communicating with some of those things. Become the rock, become the plant, feel their awareness. Open your heart and mind, and connect with them, ask them questions and listen for an answer...you might be surprised at the response you get. Everything has an awareness, and they like to talk to us, its just that we have disconnected ourselves so much from nature that very few know how to listen. This holds true the other way as well. There is consciousness that is beyond our own that is trying to communicate with us, and we are just beginning to hear what they have to share with us. I agree that there is "more and less" animation (id use the word awareness), but that does not mean that one has greater value than another. Measuring is separating, and puts you in duality consciousness rather than unity consciousness.

Thank you with all my heart for this conversation. You have helped me immensely to expand my own understanding.

Love and Gratitude

Well said!

Wow. I only read the last few pages, I'm going to make it a point to go read the rest. Just wanted to say that this is far and away the most respectful, deep, and interesting discussion on eating animals I've read in the 5 years I've been vegan.

Only thing I would add, and I apologize if this is not really an addition since I still have about 10 pages of the thread left to read:

I think that there is pretty clear scientific evidence that eating meat (animal products in general), at least at levels anywhere near what most modern people eat is not very good for the health of a human. You can look at heart attack rates pre 2

0th century compared to post. There's the China Study which is a fantastic book on the subject of modern western diet versus the diet of rural Chinese. I highly recommend reading that as a solid education on current research into human nutrition.

Once again thanks for the great read!

To be honest, I don't really like the whole process that the animals go through to become tasty yum yums, I think its inhumane and kinda f**ked up.

But I still eat meat, because it just tastes too good to resist. mmm

I agree completely. I always eat organic/grass fed/free range if I can and won't buy anything but at the market. What they do to animals in factory farms is heart wrenching and inhumane.

But I do enjoy the taste and the way its nutrients make by body feel.

Sorry if this is a recycled version of someone else's post but I only made it through a few pages.

I think we are supposed to eat meat, though in small amounts. I think that ultimately it should be a limited amount of meat used in times of hunger or scarcity but we have evolved to eat meat, we have meat eating teeth as well as plant munching teeth. Some of the nutrients we need come mainly from meat or animal products.

I disagree with the mass production of meat and prefer to stay far away from it whenever possible.
Personally I eat meat at least once a week and it is mainly chicken, my wife and I have decided to cut back significantly on our meat eating but still agree it should be eaten occasionally.