we exceed the carrying capacity of the environment and have a sharp crash in population numbers.

Humans are animals. Every attempt to look away from this fact, to present facts that would make it look otherwise, only accentuates our animalistic tendencies...the very fact that we don´t want to see that we´re animals reveals how beastlike we realy are..by revealing how obvious the fact that we´re an animal realy is.

Humans are obsessed with all kinds of things. Things of wich we think that they´ll set us apart from animals. But most of those things can be simply deduced to either: food, shelter or sex.

Especially sex is our major obsession. Advertisement agencies use it to sell whatever product they need to get rid off. And it works.

Men wear expensive clothes and handmade swiss watches. So you can say: 'animals don´t have watches and expensive clothes...see, we´re unique'. I say:'they work realy hard to pay for those clothes and those watches because they know it makes it easier for them to get-laid'.

There is no rational reason to work your but off, only to increase you chances of spreading your genes. It is not rational at all, to want to spread your genes. The fact that we´re so extremely fucking obsessed with spreading our genes, shows how much we are driven by our animal instincts all the time.

And most of all: the fact that we don´t like to see it as animal-like instinct, but instead as something of wich the fact that everybody wants it is not instinct-driven but based on desireability that is just so obvious that nobody has ever managed to describe what exactly it is that makes it so obvious...makes it...well, obvious, that we´re very, very, very much instinct driven beings.

Everytime you want something that you can´t explain, except that it´s somehow obvious to want it, you´re being lead by instinct.

all that sex.

as i said, overshoot the carrying capacity followed by a sharp crash.

I guess I don't know for sure what you're referring to, but don't you think the major problems with our species is cultural instead of genetic? Don't you think the same human population that exists today could be living a spartan lifestyle or all be meditating on hilltops if only we'd all been raised in a culture where that was the norm?

I think one difference between humans and animals is that reproducing in humans are 2 distinct things. Their genetics and their culture. One a reproduction of the body and the other a reproduction of the mind. I think it's less of a problem that undesirable genes are passed onto the next generation by uncontrolled breeding than that all of our cultures have been cuckolded by the television set bringing us messages about McDonalds and Coca Cola.

But yeah eventually this...

I think the major difference between humans and animals is self-awareness. This is not to say that there aren't animals that are self-aware, and pets probably come closest by virtue of their interaction with humans, but I think animals by and large fall lower on the self-aware spectrum than humans. This reflective mode of thinking can make all the difference. Food for thought.

They have proven that Dolphins, Elephants and the greater apes are all self aware. Household pets are debateable as to whether they have the same degree of self awareness.

Most people are familiar with the phenomenon of fractals. The mandelbrot fractal is the most well known fractal wich is based on a very simple formula. The thing that causes the infinite complexity is the feedback-like proces of iteration, wich is a phenomenon occuring throughout nature in DNA decoding, language, counsciousness and many other processes.

Iteration is something that naturally happens....you could say that it´s the proces of life or that life is based on it, but what´s important to know is that it´s what´s happening anyway in many of the processes of life.

The point is: trough feedback-like processes, very simple and basic facts can lead to an infinite complexity. A feedbackloop on N=N gives no result. A feedbackloop on N=N+1 results in an infinitely complex pattern.

So...the thing that sets us apart from animals may be a very minor and trivial detail. It may be that we have a relatively large storing capacity for linguistic terms, it may be that we have a relatively large short-term memory...something like that.

But in time, such a simple detail can result into something very complex, like a civilisation.

I think that´s exactly what happened.

applebaum, you and I are thinking alike. Yes indeed,I do think many of our problems are cultural. Well I think they started off as cultural and after a few generations there came or comes a point where the results of our behavior started to manifest itself in us genetically.

There was a period in the human time line where self reliance was extremely important to survival of individual humans. Survival of the fittest. If you couldnt keep up you would be left behind and ultimately consumed. Mothers and fathers would teach their offspring at a young age to hunt and gather and take care of themselves. Even though we humans are tribal or cultural we were, at one time, tought that self reliance was the most impotant skill we could have.

If all else fails I can take care of myself and survive.

Who is the one person that I can trust to take care of me if all else fails.
Me, or I.

As our culture, I am referring to the American culture, progressed and evolved we have taken the immportance of self reliance out of the equation. Society, religon and government, has figured out that self reliance is a danger to the corrupt systems they are trying to run.

I dont believe religons and governments want people to be self reliant. They want you to be dependent on them for help, for survival because they benefit from that.

Give us your money, give us your vote and we will provide for you. We will take care of you.

and the degradation of survival skills needed to be successful in this life begins and the era of self reliance ends.

In walks the genetic changes.

Changes in diet, medicine, education, belief systems, activity levels all contribute to this.

Obesity, diabetes, hi blood pressure, depression, ADD, ADHD, chemical addictions just to name a few.

American society drives another nail in the coffin!

and many in society scream, OMG! What am I going to do! Help me and my 27 illegitimate children. We are sick, we are broke, we cant work, we are hungry, we have no where to live, and our new 52" HDTV that we bought with our welfare check is broken.

Religon and government step up and say-

Hey its OK! We will take care of you! you dont have to do a thing we will do it all for you. All you have to do is support us, give to us, believe in us, vote for us and we will take care of you!, putting the size of government over the health and welfare of the nation.

Its been a slow progression and most of society has bought into it and the genetic changes continue.




Yes, but REALTITY BITES! That is not the norm.
The only way to get them up on the hill tops now is to build casinos up there and advertise all you can eat dinner buffets and drink specials oh and free medical benefits and provide big busses with extra wide seats to haul em up there!

Yes I think the problem is cultural and I believe the cultural problems are now leading to genetic changes that will take several generations to FIX.

With language we define our outer reality. We assign a certain meaning to it, and give it limits with words like "yes and no". Basically we create our own limits of life in order to survive based on a mixture of reality and learned fear. Animals are free because they don't have words, they just "live life", and let life show them naturally the way to do things. They live DIRECTLY by doing.

Us humans live in such a mad way, it's no wonder there's mental neuroseis such as OCD, and depression. We have to "think" before we do something in case of many reasons including breaking the law. We almost never live DIRECTLY...

>>Yes, language sets us apart from animals, we depend excessively on it, and it has enslaved us into a limited lifestyle and overthinking...i think...

Back when I lived out in the country I had a pack of dogs.
Anyway, I was painting a sign one day and had to walk off for a bit... So my little dog Daisy decided to drink a pint of "John Deere" yellow paint.
I got back and was really scared as I loved that dog. Anyway I followed her around to make sure she didn't die.
Well so 15minutes later there is Daisy throwing up and having explosive diahrea to the tune of "John Deere Yellow"

It was colorful if nothing else. Matter of fact another dog "Allie" decided that the paint smelled tasty and decided to drink the yellow paint that Daisy was vomiting. This had obvious results.
So I guess what I'm saying is animals have a very powerful instinct, but trust me, even dogs you'd consider to be very smart are not able to reason about things.

Daisy was the same dog that would bark at 3am. Her bark would echo back and she'd get excited.... she'd bark back in response. This often went for hours.

At the end, a wild dog showed up, he was an alpha. Due to Daisy being the smallest of the pack and the unique social structure of dogs, the Alpha dog got the rest of the pack riled up enough to kill Daisy. Allie, who grew up with Daisy and spent every waking minute with her was the one that tore out her throat.
30minutes later as Daisy was dieing and the alpha dog was shot, Allie laid with Daisy and cried for the loss of her best friend.

thats my story and I'm sticking to it.
Rw

The difference between animals and people. We were made in the likeness of God, so that one day God could be reborn threw us. The animals and plants were made by God for our survival.................biblical, Y'all.

But seriously I am kind of sick of these rhetorical nobody can be right questions. Going back to the original posts, well animals have language. It may not be complex or written, but they have ways to communicate. How do those damned monarchs make it back to the same hill in Mexico when they are two to three generations away from their grandparents who were there. It is like going to the old country and finding the exact spot your great-great-grandmama was born.

There are so many things that separate us from animals. Is it a soul? Animals indeed have a consciousness, even plants(yes vegans even if you cant hear the cries of the carrots they are crying). But do they have souls????? Another unanswerable rhetorical question for all you over thinkers to over think....

And this you see as different from human behaviour - How, exactly?