what do you guys think? Pavlov was a major supporter of this idea. I see where hes coming from, but to me- the complexity of humans and animals if nearly incomparable.

Discuss

language per se or communication in general?

I don't think languaghe is human. There is animal language and animal can eve,n be taught some human language i.e gorillas and chimps, dolphins can be taught in sign language and parrots have been know to express abstracts thought..
Maybe you want to say articulated language as vocalic language ?

Can u speak animal language? I rest my case

also horses can paint

I wouldn't say "language" specifically; instead I would say "concepts." Of course most (but not all) of our concepts are in the form of language.

I don't think other animals have/use concepts, and juggle/compare groups of concepts, in order to form "plans of action," etc.

Still, some of the problem solving feats of chimps suggest they DO use something similar. Then there's the famous story of a zoo orangutan who constantly got out of his cage--and they found he had a piece of wire which he bent (and hid in his mouth 24 hours a day), that he could use to PICK LOCKS! There have to be some concepts in use in that situation.

http://youtu.be/ySMh1mBi3cI
http://youtu.be/xOrgOW9LnT4
http://youtu.be/fjLRgosNf_Q

Written language, yes, likely; vocal communication, however, is the domain of a large portion of the animal kingdom.

Our psychology science still wears diapers.

First, I would discuss that separation between humans and animals. It's certainly not simple, nor clear. And I am not thinking particularly about genetics and phylogeny. The growing evidence of intelligence, problem solving and emotions in other species is overwhelming. Last month I remember seeing a video of a crow snowboarding. In a roof. Repeated times. Sliding down using a piece of wood, picking it up and flying back to start point. And I bet the only reason why we cannot see him giggle is because we use a different code.

That said, I think Pavlov placed that difference rather in symbolic language. Which, as said, has to do more with developing concepts. And others have pointed out that most other mammals, for instance, do not seem to have the ability of imagining situations in a way that would cause them anxiety or fear, the way we do. Apparently, a zebra won't freak because of anticipating an eventual lion attack. So far it seems humans have a special ability for making s**t up. Whether accessing more efficiently that world of ideas, that internal way of playing and rehearsing beyond trial-error and child's play, is a "progress" or just yet another efficient adaptation tool, could also be discussed.

In any case, I'm sure the difference between our species and others, no matter which difference you think of, is only a matter of degree. We tend to trace lines of separation too fast.

The prefrontal cortex? The HAR1 gene? Who knows? It is a widely-held view that the human is just a rational animal.

Often not so rational.

Hehe, at least an animal with the ability to be rational ^^

I don't believe there really is anything that seperates us from animals.

But, I say this in a good way.

Maybe the one thing I would say, is that Humans tend to take things to the extreme.

^^ The above example of a crow snowboarding. Crows can snowboard, but humans will devise a way to glide down the mountain as fast and efficiently as possible.

conciousness, i-am-ness is the difference -
The fact that humanity is constantly developing and creating new stuff shows the ever-recreating force of conciousness!

Animals are limited - and they are designed to be that way.
Human being is capable of transforming the gifts of nature and become something far greater.

Animals do in fact use vocalized as well as body language. They may not have as diverse a vocabulary as humans but they do communicate well with each other.

In the end were all animals anyway.

First of all..Pavlov was an insane psychopath in my opinion. Extemely twisted individual..while he did contribute alot to his profession I guess there was something very wrong going on up in that guys head and most of his work was based on conditioning that would easily pass as torture these days.

The answer to the origional question really depends on how you want to define language, how far you want to extend that definition etc..essentially nearly everything we do is based on language in some form or another..animals are not really any different.

I guess you can say that it is our language..but it a much much more broad sense than just spoken.

the idea that we are not animals > ha.

does anyone have a link to where he made this claim?

I was talking about it with a friend. Some of you guys have some great points.

but if we deferentiated language through concepts, how can we really define a concept in and of itself? furthering that, how would we then attribute it to an animal? with todays medical tools we can examine brain activity, but not to the point of identifying the formation of a basic thought let alone a concept. Surely if we cant even establish the existance of a concept in another human, we couldnt even contemplate going further and saying its what seperates us from other animals? Sure we could base assumptions on their actions, but we would only be how they react not why. you cant really infer much from the actions of an animal (at least, not when you get to more complex areas)

Also, a crow snow bording? that is cool.

Last year I recall watching a documentary on animal intelligence. One of the animals that it covered was of course the dolphin. At this one particular reserve, they had the dolphins trained to respond to physical signs/their own made up sign language/verbal commands, using either one or two or all techniques. So for example, they'd give the verbal command to do a double flip, and the dolphin would go down, come back up and do a double flip. Simple enough, but even dogs could do a task of a similar nature (perhaps not the double flip, but you get the point). Furthermore, they could give the command for the dolphin to do it synchronized in a group with another dolphin. Here's where things get interesting though. One of the commands was to "make up a trick" at which point the dolphin would go down underwater, come back up and do a stunt that it hadn't been trained to do. Now, when they told them to make up a trick in a group, the two dolphins would go underwater, make some clicks and whistles and then come up and do a trick they've never done before in multiple stages in perfect sync. Now, whether they're using exclusively their clicks and whistles or sonar or what have you, in terms of the task, they have better communication abilities than humans. Imagine you and even a close friend talking for 3 seconds, running down a field and doing a double-staged gymnastic feat in perfect sync. Probably wouldn't come close.

wow. that is amazing. I think for the first time in my life, I've actually been impressed with dolphins. thats incredible.

Jeremy Narby authored a book entitled Intelligence in Nature, and I think that book is very relevant to this thread. You guys should check it out sometime.

Basically, after reading this book, I am convinced that animals are every bit as "intelligent" as humans are. I think of it less as humans being the same as animals, and more like animals being the same as humans.

Other animals most definately use concepts and can communicate with eachother.

They did an experiment with Dolphins which I saw. They used the command to do a trick, to work with eachother, and to create something new. The dolphins went underwater, communicated with eachother briefly and then swam off and did a synchronized trick together that the trainers had never taught them.

Our ability to communicate is likely more primitive and limiting than what dolphins are capable of. When we communicate with them it is like we are using baby talk to communicate with an uber genius.

Edit: Doh, just read the post that says the same thing...thats what I get for responding after reading the first few posts...hehe