i have done salvia once before and i was fine affterwards in terms of long term after effects and im planning to take salvia again on the coming monday in a larger dose from the first but i have since been hearing about people developing schizophrenia from salvia and my paranoia and worry has kicked in. As far as i know no one in my immediate and distant family has ever developed schizophrenia but is there still a big or small chance of salvia triggering or causing schizophrenia or are these stories just to scare me away from these drugs.

I've never heard of salvia causing schizophrenia.. I've smoked salvia 5 times and everytime the feeling has somewhat lingered with me untill I go to sleep, but it has never made a noticible differnce in my hppd, let alone shown signs of inducing schizophrenia.. My best guess is that if someone has a pre-disposition for that illness, then psychedelics may help uncover it. If you have no history of mental illness in you or your family then I think your definatly fine.. Have fun with sally man!

I've never heard of anyone developing schizophrenia from salvia use. Where did you hear this?
All the issues I have seen with salvia were eventually worked out through integration except for a few that jumped to their death but they don't have schizophrenia either now do they?

After the first time I had a breakthrough experience on salvia I was a bit between worlds for a little over a week. I've never had an issue with it since even after countless journeys over the last 3 years.

Salvia can definitely shake you up its not something you should go into lightly but cause schizophrenia? I seriously doubt it.

thanks for the replies guys and in regards to "MySmelf" i heard about this from just generally searching around on the internet on sites like yahoo answers and some medical sites warning people to stay away from enthogens which i never could do even though i was still worried.

And also i relate to your first time experience with salvia as well , i remember falling through the tunnel in salvia space and i didnt even breakthrough and see any entities or places in general but the revelations i had on salvia where just amazing from such a small experience from only falling through a deep space tunnel. I realized that our physical bodies where only temporary and that enthogens like salvia helped us to tap into other worlds and our true spirit. the next week i was spaced out and finding that i didnt worry about the issues in my life before salvia at all and to this day its really changed my perpective on life in general and im almost overwhelmed to think what salvia has in store for me next but none the less im open to learn and grow spiritually from it

Hadnt heard of salvia specifically being linked to schizophrenia but I think all psychoactives can potentially trigger a mental problem. I have a family history of schizophrenia and i've took salvia, and a plethora of other shit too, without it triggering schizophrenia in me... Whereas my aunt developed schizophrenia without ever really taking drugs. My uncle developed a drug induced psychosis when he was about my age and recovered pretty quickly but my aunt is still unwell just now... So to be honest ive always just viewed it as pot luck, similar to being randomly attacked in the street, it may well happen but it wont stop me walking down the street (or taking drugs).

So to anyone out there, if you had a history of schizophrenia in your family do you think salvia could bring that on? I do have a history of insanity in my family, both sides. I also often go through stages where I believe myself to be insane (these have lessened to a degree). Me and my friend were planning on trying salvia sometime soon, so I'm wondering if there is potential danger?

Id say yes.

Never heard of Salvia doing that. There's plenty of medical abstracts out there on the web that link Cannabis to schizophrenia and psychosis in those prone to it. Especially in the under twenties age group.
If anything I'd say Salvia has antipsychotic properties.

That may well be true but the experience can be incredibly intense and I think intense experiences (drug induced or otherwise) always have the potential to trigger problems... Usually a very small chance though.

Sure it can be intense in higher doses, been there as well and won't ever be going back!. But I take it in moderate doses ( sub-lingual) 3-4 times a week, as a mood booster and find it somehow mood stabilising at the same time. Everything in moderation except moderation itself.

Before you can even get into this you have to first define schizophrenia. There are many assumptions that schizophrenics hear things that are not there. that they make up these voices in their head and what not. however, how do we truly define a real or fake experience? Our five senses lie to us on a daily basis. For instance, if anyone is into Quantum physics they would tell you that reality is nothing more then a fabrication of the human mind. That the things we see with our eyes are mere shadows of what is truly there. With schizophrenia people have to stop thinking that psychology is a factual based study. when it actuality it is more of a theory based with minor clinical trials backing it. Any psychologist will tell you that this is what we humans have found to be "true" so far. With this being said let us look into something that many people do not look at.

Let us say that we have a teenager who has schizophrenia. let us say for this instance that people tell him that it is not normal to see/hear things that are not "there". That teenager is going to grow up thinking these voices or people are fabrications of his mind and it will in turn act like such. Meaning he will think he is crazy or not normal.

Now let us take the same teenager and tell him that it is not a fabrication of the mind but merely his brain being able to tune into the outer realms or the Spiritual world. How do you think that teenager will respond? Do you think that he will have a gift or a curse? Do you truly believe that he will go out and do bad things due to the fabrications of the mind? or will his views on it be more spiritual and he will take it as so?

that is the prob with the modern human condition. is they want to believe that what technology comes out that whatever it shows is the truth. That there can never be another truth to the matter. However, as many times as our technology advances so does our theories and views on mental illness and other things of our "reality" become to light.

Two links about this topic:

Salvia divinorum - Health Issues
http://www.plot55.com/health/s.divinorum.html

Persistent Psychosis Associated With Salvia Divinorum Use
http://ajp.psychiatryonl...age=832&journalID=13

This is an interesting question, and having reviewed virtually all of the relevant literature I think I'm equipped to give it a fair treatment. I'll try to be thorough but succinct.

The risk of developing schizophrenia as a result of using Salvia divinorum is probably not very great.

Consider how many young people (the group most at-risk for developing schizophrenia) have tried the drug. From the 2006 National Survey on Drug Use and Health data, 2% of people aged 18-25 have tried it (SAMHSA 2008). Figures from surveys conducted at two large public universities in 2008 put the number much higher, ranging from 4.5% (Lange et al. 2008) to 6.5% (Khey et al. 2008). If there were a significant link between S. divinorum and schizophrenia, we could expect to find an ample number of case reports in the literature... but instead we find only two of note.

In one case, the condition did not seem to improve with time, exhibiting no improvement over the course of four months; the authors of this case report suspect the individual was genetically predisposed to schizophrenia, although he had no personal or family history of psychiatric abnormalities (Przekop & Lee 2009). In the other, the individual had unknowingly smoked the plant (someone loaded a bowl and told her it was cannabis); her condition returned to normal over the course of several weeks, and quite possibly would have improved sooner had it not been for some arguably counterproductive psychiatric intervention (Paulzen & Gründer 2008). There is also a report of an individual with a history of psychiatric issues smoking cannabis and experiencing a three-day episode of schizotypal behavior accompanied by intense and frequent déjà vu. The author mentions that the patient had smoked S. divinorum some months prior to the incident, but only to speculate that there might be some relation between the patient's déjà vu and his past consumption of S. divinorum; they do not believe it to have played any causal role in the onset of the episode (Singh 2007).

In light of this, I think we can safely presume that, at worst, S. divinorum is no more likely to trigger persistent schizophrenia than any other powerful mind-altering experience.

I suspect many of the warnings you read were not founded on an examination of the literature, but it's possible they might have been hearkening to warning statements that some Mazatecs have made about the plant. Daniel Siebert has mentioned that the Mazatecs believe you can go "completely mad" if you don't follow the proper rituals (Ball 2008). Bret Blosser's Mazatec friends told him that if you don't abstain from sex for several days prior to a ceremony, you might go crazy at the next ceremony (this was in reference both to S. divinorum and to psilocybian mushrooms) (Blosser 2003). The curandero who Jerry Valdés consulted told him that breaking from a prescribed dieta could make one crazy (Valdés et al. 1983). An American journalist for Gentlemen's Quarterly magazine spoke of a young curandero who would not perform a ceremony with the leaves, explaining that a young shaman taking the drug will drive himself crazy; on being told of American youth using the leaves he warned that they would "make their minds blind" and that it would "turn them into fools" (Ketcham 2007). Kathleen Harrison has mentioned that the Mazatecs prefer mushrooms because they know they will always come back, while with S. divinorum they are never sure (Harrison 2008). It's difficult to know whether these warnings are predominantly allegorical, serving to promote proper respect for the plant, or if they are actually speaking to the possibility of real adverse outcomes.

And on the subject of persistent adverse psychological outcomes, I think that the association between S. divinorum and derealization/depersonalization phenomena deserves a mention. Many people who have tried the drug can relate to having some residual feelings of unreality that may last for a matter of minutes or hours after the acute effects have worn off. From reading entheogen-related forums over the years, I recall encountering some reports of these feelings persisting for a few days after the experience. But during the course of my research on the plant, I was startled to find a significant number of reports from people who had experienced derealization or depersonalization that persisted for months or years; for those individuals who were so affected, this had a significant detrimental impact on their ability to lead normal lives. While this is very rare outcome, there are certainly more reports of this kind than of schizophrenia induced by S. divinorum. In lieu of a lengthy digression, I'll simply conclude by linking to a thread where I've treated that subject in some detail: Salvia divinorum and depersonalization/derealization



Sources Cited

• Ball, M.W. 2008. Salvia Divinorum [sic] from A-Z with Daniel Siebert, Part 1. The Entheogenic Evolution. Podcast audio program. PodOmatic, Inc., San Francisco, CA. 20 Nov 2008.
  
• Blosser, B. 2003. Lessons in the use of Mazatec psychoactive plants. Accessed 10 Feb 2011 from http://www.sagewisdom.org/lessons.html. Page created Feb 2003. Original date of composition unknown; the work appears not to have been previously published.
  
• Harrison, K. 2008. Spirit in nature: Psychedelic plants and mushrooms through native eyes. Lecture delivered 22 Mar 2008 at the World Psychedelic Forum in Basel, Switzerland.
  
• Ketcham, C. 2007. Under the spell of the magic mint. Gentlemen's Quarterly June 2007: 208-212.
  
• Khey, D.N., B.L. Miller, and O.H. Griffin III. 2008. Salvia divinorum use among a college student sample. Journal of Drug Education 38(3): 297-306.
  
• Lange, J.E., M.B. Reed, J.M. Ketchie Croff, and J.D. Clapp. 2008. College student use of Salvia divinorum. Drug and Alcohol Dependence 94: 263-266.
  
• Paulzen, M., and G. Gründer. 2008. Toxic psychosis after intake of the hallucinogen salvinorin A. Journal of Clinical Psychiatry 69(9): 1501-1502.
  
• Przekop, P., and T. Lee. 2009. Persistent psychosis associated with Salvia divinorum use. American Journal of Psychiatry 166(7): 832.
  
• SAMHSA. 2008. The NSDUH Report: Use of Specific Hallucinogens: 2006. Rockville, MD.
  
• Singh, S. 2007. Adolescent salvia substance abuse. Addiction 102(5): 823-824.
  
• Valdés III, L.J., J.L. Díaz, and A.G. Paul. 1983. Ethnopharmacology of Ska María Pastora (Salvia divinorum, Epling and Játiva-M.). Journal of Ethnopharmacology 7(3): 287-312.
  

Just a note on schizophrenia, grey matter thickness is significantly reduced in various brain regions compared to healthy adults, and this phenomenon (not theory) can affect chemical and electrical communications between populations of neurons. It is safe to assume that any cortical degeneration can (and has) produce significant changes in behaviour, emotional and sensory processing (auditory, visual, tacticle, olfactory, proprioception), just like with patterns observed in Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, Huntington's diseases, where auditory hallucinations have also been observed in a significant proportion of the affected patient populations. This long standing debate over the validity of schizophrenia is gradually fading in the light of large-scale meta-analytical neuroimaging studies.


Sources:

Bora et al. (2011). Neuroanatomical abnormalities in schizophrenia: A multimodal voxelwise meta-analysis and meta-regression analysis. Schizophrenia Research, 127, p. 46-57. doi:10.1016/j.schres.2010.12.020

Kempton, Stahl, Williams & DeLisi, (2010). Progressive lateral ventricular enlargement in schizophrenia: A meta-analysis of longitudinal MRI studies. Schizophrenia Research, 120, p. 54-62. doi:10.1016/j.schres.2010.03.036

Nesvåg, R., et al., A 5-year follow-up study of brain cortical and subcortical abnormalities in a schizophrenia cohort, Schizophr. Res. (2012), http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.schres.2012.10.004

Van Haren, N.E., et al., Confounders of excessive brain volume loss in schizophrenia. Neurosci. Biobehav. Rev. (2012), http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.neubiorev.2012.09.006

At one point in my life, I was afraid I might be going crazy, but I took Salvia anyway. In part, I was using it to treat depressive symptoms which had resulted from a difficult mushroom trip. (It actually worked phenomenally, by the way.) Even though I was pretty careful about the size of the doses (sub-breakthrough amounts), one night I slipped up and had a full-on "ego-death" level experience. I went about as deep as I imagine one can go with this plant, where all delineations of linear time and space broke down until it was like they'd never existed at all.

Afterwards, I had absolutely no symptoms of schizophrenia, but it was the thought that I might be going crazy, that it was only a matter of time, that brought on anxiety and bad vibes. In my experience, this is the worst that can happen. The worst a difficult experience can do is to lend credence to your doubting and fearful thoughts. (And that's not to downplay the subjective experience, because thoughts are extremely potent, they literally make up the structure of our world. . . as the Buddha said, we are what we think.)

While I'm sure there are people whose grip on reality could be totally shattered by these experiences, I think it's safe to say that most people don't have to worry about that. I think it's usually fairly obvious who is prone to such things.

There are many types of crazy, and schizophrenia is certainly one, and a panic attack is another, and a salvia trip is another, and an LSD trip is another... If what you get out of using salvia does not resemble "crazy", then I would say you're just not doing it right. Psychedelics are unanimously used to produce altered states of consciousness, and it just so happens that society views all deviations from "normal" consciousness as "crazy". "crazy" is just an arbitrary line drawn in the sand, and psychedelics should allow us to better appreciate the other side of the beach that we've always been told is off-limits. Craziness is so vehemently looked down upon because humans have been trained throughout history to obey and conform to our government's will. Popular culture views crazy as being dangerous because, frankly, the inability or lack of desire to conform is dangerous to culture.

TM: "...culture is not your friend. Culture is for other people's convenience and the convenience of various institutions, churches, companies, tax collection schemes, what have you."

"Part of what psychedelics do, is they decondition you from cultural values. This is what makes it such a political hot potato, since all culture is a kind of congame, the most dangerous candy you can hand out is candy that makes people start questioning the rules of the game."

I wouldnt suggest psychedelics to people who suffer or have any form of psychosis in the close family.

If anything I would say DMT would be the "safest one", due to its little lasting effects and it seems to be clearer.

Psychedelics have to go with a powerful mind and a strong will. In the end it is up to each of us to take their own path.

Interesting thread, thanks for resurrecting it. I too have been wondering this and like beezlebozo, a year ago I had a period of trying out salvia exactly when I was also worried about developing schizophrenia because of a few close relatives that have it. And this mindset in itself can cause quite bad experiences with salvia. Now a year later, I'm pretty convinced that I haven't inherited this "gene", altho on a certain deep aya trip I talked with my DNA and it basically told me that it's a complicated issue, that the label "schizophrenia" itself is meaningless but the wide range of phenomena it implies I simultaneously can have and not have, but that's a whole other story. (relating alot to what hixidom wrote above, well said)

I can perfectly see tho why someone would associate schizophrenia with salvia more than any other psychedelic, because salvia has that dissociative element and to me a salvia experience is the closest thing I can compare to all the things I've read about the symptoms of schizophrenia. I lose all associations to earthly things and if I try to talk while on salvia it sounds like complete word salad with no word relating to the previous one, everything is jumbled and it feels dirty and uncomfortable and heavy. Traditional psychedelics do that also to some degree but there is still a very profound sense of meaning and connection in everything, very often there is unconditional love at the core level that binds everything together. To me salvia is far more likely to produce an experience where nothing matters and everything is just meaningless shit, with a very deep sense of melancholy about the whole universe. Like it's all just a big cruel inside-joke and you're not allowed to be on the inside in a human form. And those can be very hard to integrate. Currently I'm leaning towards a view that is a combination of those, that everything is made of both love and shit at the same time.

But this is all just subjective observations and if anyone is even a bit worried about this issue they should read Entropymancers excellent post above. Statistically it seems to be very unlikely to develop schizophrenia from salvia.

While I agree that there is a trend in labeling any sort of behavioural deviation from the mean as "crazy" (thank the APA), please rest assured that someone who slowly withdraws from life because of vivid auditory and/or visual hallucinations, and asks for them to stop so he/she can lead a normal life (normal as in being able to work, talk, interact, love, sleep etc), will definitely not find comfort or remission by accepting themselves for who they are.




I would urge you not to share this statement liberally. Not only it has not been researched, but the logic behind the process of triggering schizophrenia (or any of the psychoses) is that substances that alter the function of the human brain should not be used by psychosis-prone individuals, because it may be that the altering as an event may be enough to trigger gene expression. It may be that even a single dose of DMT could potentially do the trick, or it may never. Would you risk it? More importantly, would you tell someone else that it is okay to risk it? Of course, you said you wouldn't, but I felt it should be noted that no mind-altering substance should be considered "safer" than any other, even THC, a molecule very different in structure, class, and pharmacokinetics from serotonergic psychedelics, can and has shown to potentiate the onset of psychoses. It is only logical to assume that even Salvinorin may have the same potential as any other.

- I never stated that all crazy is created equal. My response assumes that the original poster was not developing schizophrenia from salvia use, which I think is a fair assumption.

- I would argue that everyone can indeed find some comfort in accepting themselves for who they are.

- I never advocated/suggested the possibility of remission of crazy.