Kalt und Heiß, Schwarz und Rot, Kürper und Geist, Liebe und Chaos
 
Posts: 4661 Joined: 02-Jun-2008 Last visit: 30-Apr-2022
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'Coatl wrote:But see heres my thing... I don't think you should sell prepared and brewed ayahuasca, or little packets of DMT or some shit like... if the botanicals only are legal the people must possess some knowledge and respect to use them... not every one can brew aya' but everybody can pop a pill! So you propose to basically replace the current regulations with simply different regulations, like do not sell prepared aya, or like grow mushrooms and consume them but do not sell them to others or do not sell them for profit? And how one qualifies as "knowledgeable" enough to to "respect" these ethnobotanicals? Your proposals will always bump on people who will always find ways to bend the regulations and eventually give these botanicals a bad name. This is ppossibly why half-measures like those will never be sufficient and average people may never welcome them. Because they will lead to different regulations and different definitions of legal terms and different definition of criteria and in short a whole lotta work that may not change anything in the end. Legislators are better off adhering to the current system rather jumping to ambiguous waters. Of course, complete decriminalisation of all (so-called) drugs is a more realistic aim and one I would gladly fight for. Not for hiding behind my finger in the eyes of the government with those entheogenic rights. Need to calculate between salts and freebases? Click here! Need to calculate freebase or salt percentage at a given pH? Click here!
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Teotzlcoatl
Posts: 2462 Joined: 08-Jul-2008 Last visit: 24-Jun-2011 Location: South-Eastern U.S.A.
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Here's what I'm saying... Botanicals- no regulations may be made about them what-so-ever Everything esle- regulated pharmaceuticals The drug war would totally change, in my perfect world... WARNING: DO NOT INGEST ANY BOTANICAL WHICH YOU HAVE NOT FULLY RESEARCHED AND CORRECTLY IDENTIFIED!!!I am Teotzlcoatl, older cousin of Quetzalcoatl. My most famous physical incarnation was Nezahualcoyotl, but I have taken many forms since the dawn of the cosmos. In this realm I manifest as multiple entities at a single time. I am many, I am numbered. I am few, but more than one. I am a multifaceted being, a winged serpent with many heads. We are Teotzlcoatl. "We Are The One's We've Been Waiting For" - Hopi Proverb
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DMT-Nexus member
 
Posts: 3555 Joined: 13-Mar-2008 Last visit: 07-Jul-2024 Location: not here
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Quote:Botanicals- no regulations may be made about them what-so-ever
I agree and disagree. While a botanical substance should never require human regulation unless its been genetically modified or grown with dangerous pesticides when one sells a botanical substance as a medicine some degree of regulation is useful. If you sell something specifically as a medicine you should at least put some effort into showing that the active components are there and at what level they are present. But thats if its sold as a medicine only. If its sold as a dietary supplement or just a botanical substance then no of course not. But as a customer I would want some garuntee of quality. But I guess I am getting a bit off topic because these substances are being grown by those or associates of those who are using them ie. other members of the religion or whatever. They are being used in a religious not necessarily medicinal aspect (although that can tie in). They are also not being sold for profit and thus no regulation is needed because that would mean they would need to spend money regulating something they are not making money on which is stupid. I do agree though that all plants should be legal. I can think of a lot of everyday plants that are highly toxic, much more toxic then illegal plants. Not to mention that the concept of making a plant illegal is rediculous and should be abolished. Quote:At this point our only chance is to ask that botanicals and not extracted chemicals be made legal for religous use.
Have you ever heard of that church that uses DPT as a religious sacrement? Shulgin mentions the groups name in thikal but I forget their name something with holy light or something. I think they used to be based in New York but I have no idea what became of the group.
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Teotzlcoatl
Posts: 2462 Joined: 08-Jul-2008 Last visit: 24-Jun-2011 Location: South-Eastern U.S.A.
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Quote:I agree and disagree. While a botanical substance should never require human regulation unless its been genetically modified or grown with dangerous pesticides when one sells a botanical substance as a medicine some degree of regulation is useful. I would have it so that you can't sell psychoactive botanicals commerically except for cultivation purpose. This leaves the power of the plants in the hands of those who truely care and not those looking for a quick high. Also by leaving drugs like meth and heroin illegal, it still appears that police are doing their job and protecting the community. Quote:Have you ever heard of that church that uses DPT as a religious sacrement? Ya the church of inner light or some shit... Quote:I do agree though that all plants should be legal. I can think of a lot of everyday plants that are highly toxic, much more toxic then illegal plants. Not to mention that the concept of making a plant illegal is rediculous and should be abolished. And thats basically my arguemet. I'm saying to the government- "Do what you want with "drugs" but leave the botanicals alone! You cannot restrict botanicals in anyway! (but once somebody produces a drug from that botanical, like extracts pure morphine from poppies, it becomes illegal) I think it makes perfect sense, it leaves a loop-hole for those who truely feel drawn to the entheogenic experience and it makes the police and community still feel like they are safe and in the right. WARNING: DO NOT INGEST ANY BOTANICAL WHICH YOU HAVE NOT FULLY RESEARCHED AND CORRECTLY IDENTIFIED!!!I am Teotzlcoatl, older cousin of Quetzalcoatl. My most famous physical incarnation was Nezahualcoyotl, but I have taken many forms since the dawn of the cosmos. In this realm I manifest as multiple entities at a single time. I am many, I am numbered. I am few, but more than one. I am a multifaceted being, a winged serpent with many heads. We are Teotzlcoatl. "We Are The One's We've Been Waiting For" - Hopi Proverb
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 1139 Joined: 14-Jul-2008 Last visit: 01-Apr-2017 Location: USA
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Heroin and cocaine are made more dangerous by prohibition. Prohibition has done nothing to decrease use among the population. Thus we are actualy paying billions of dollars in the US to make drug use more dnagerous. Not to mention the crime. Before prohibition heroin and cocaine were used by just as many % of population however these people did not suffer from as many overdoses and ill health effects because they new what they were taking and how much. Furthermore they were not stealing to support their habits. Yes some criminals use illegal drugs however many otherwise law abiding citizens use these drugs without any negative effects aside from legal. These safe users represent the majority of users. We just here about studies that take place in prisons and rehabs. Does that sound like a fair sample population. Do we conduct studies on the effects of ice cream by interviewing prisoners or cancer patients? I can see the headline now Ice cream causes crime, and cancer. I could go on and on.. all drugs should be regulated so that they can be used in the safest manner possible. it is the only way which will work, he drive to use substances is a biological drive, it has been with our ancestors since before they were humans and it isn't going anywhere. Harm reduction...
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Cloud Whisperer
Posts: 1953 Joined: 05-Jan-2009 Last visit: 22-Jan-2020 Location: Amongst the clouds
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I think enthogens that are all natural should all be legal because the plants can protect themselves, the knowledge each enthogen holds will not be given out lightly or to someone who has no respect or deep journey in mind. If someone is just messing around or taking an enthogen in some form of recreational way they will soon know about it that's for sure  Unnatural s seem to only cause blood to be spilt in the process of the so called drug to reach its user. The users just waste their lives and money away trying to fill the emptiness that they have inside but all the unnatural drug does is create ego highs and more emptiness. I don't think anything can come from unnatural drugs but a broken society, broken people and broken hearts and minds as well as precious lives lost. Much Peace
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Teotzlcoatl
Posts: 2462 Joined: 08-Jul-2008 Last visit: 24-Jun-2011 Location: South-Eastern U.S.A.
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I don't know what the answer to the drug war is... I believe it is to offer decent alternatives... If mushrooms, Ayahuasca, Saliva, Iboga and Cannabis were legal... why the fuck would you want to smoke meth? or do heroin? All taxes from alcohol, tobacco, sugar, caffeine products and cannbis would go to rehabilation programs. The people would be arrested, drugs destroyed and a choice between prison or rehab. Addicts would be offered Iboga and Ayahuasca treatments. Here in my arguement for current legalization it is downright stupid to even think of asking to have heroin, cocaine or meth legalized along side of Ayahuasca, Cactus and 'Shrooms. I also find it hugely disrespectful to the holy botanicals. People in our current situation may allow people to use Ayahuasca or Peyote for religous use, but they will never allow people to openly use heroin or meth, nor do I think they should... Botanicals - No regulations what-so-ever Drugs- Illegal, but punishment consists of confiscation and rehabilitation. WARNING: DO NOT INGEST ANY BOTANICAL WHICH YOU HAVE NOT FULLY RESEARCHED AND CORRECTLY IDENTIFIED!!!I am Teotzlcoatl, older cousin of Quetzalcoatl. My most famous physical incarnation was Nezahualcoyotl, but I have taken many forms since the dawn of the cosmos. In this realm I manifest as multiple entities at a single time. I am many, I am numbered. I am few, but more than one. I am a multifaceted being, a winged serpent with many heads. We are Teotzlcoatl. "We Are The One's We've Been Waiting For" - Hopi Proverb
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Teotzlcoatl
Posts: 2462 Joined: 08-Jul-2008 Last visit: 24-Jun-2011 Location: South-Eastern U.S.A.
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Update- Quote:Sara, the judge, denied Karsten of being represented by an attorney... That in of itself will weigh strongly in Karsten's appeal process, in his favor. Karsten is not alone by any stretch of an imagination. I understand, as Karsten is becoming aware, the difficulty that the court was confronted with on his case, as the law enforcement officers stated very exactly, they have no idea about the laws protecting the freedom of the Native American Church and the way the trial was conducted neither did the judge. I am very confident, once this case gets to the State of Utah Fourth District Court, the outcome most definitely will be ruled in Karsten’s favor. The higher courts in the State of Utah do have an understanding of the protections and freedom the Native American Church is assured outlined by the 1st. Amendment. My faith in our country’s judicial system is unshakable. It seems to work slowly at times and sometimes it takes three steps forward and then two steps back, however my experience with it has proven to me, it will eventually correct its errors in judgment. In order to allow it to make its adjustments one must exercise respectful patience and have faith in the process. When one considers approximately 90 years of orchestrated slanderous campaign by many powerful industry’s that have benefited by the suppression of Cannabis and in addition over four hundreds of Christian churches desire to suppress the freeing ideology of the American Native Spirituality. It does not take a genius of sorts to understand that it will take a little time to disengage these disruptive entanglements, that a few powerful greed filled and prideful, influences have had on our judicial system concerning cannabis and American Native Spirituality. We live in a wonderful nation that has sustained itself, through very trying times, by the rule of law that is clearly and concisely outlined in the bill of rights. Sara it is all good. Wandan James Seminole Medicine Man www.nativeamericanchurch.net WARNING: DO NOT INGEST ANY BOTANICAL WHICH YOU HAVE NOT FULLY RESEARCHED AND CORRECTLY IDENTIFIED!!!I am Teotzlcoatl, older cousin of Quetzalcoatl. My most famous physical incarnation was Nezahualcoyotl, but I have taken many forms since the dawn of the cosmos. In this realm I manifest as multiple entities at a single time. I am many, I am numbered. I am few, but more than one. I am a multifaceted being, a winged serpent with many heads. We are Teotzlcoatl. "We Are The One's We've Been Waiting For" - Hopi Proverb
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