Veganism is a luxury of the privileged educated class.

A luxury I thoroughly enjoy.


We must keep evolving! Fuck our evolutionary instincts and genetics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZeDKRl2ryw

Puts me off straight away, privileged educated class?? What does that mean? Went to a private school? Born into wealth? Elitist bs by the sounds of it!

I apologize if that sounds snobby, I don't believe in free will so I"m not capable of judging others.

In this context, privileged educated class means, more or less, every citizen of every country with a public school system, sewage treatment, medical technology, etc., who was born into a situation where they were able to take some advantage of educating themselves in the humanities and nutrition.

Why do I consider it a privilege:

1) The evidence seems to be clear that a vegan who does not take a b12 supplement will rot their spine out in addition to other things. See the author of "the vegetarian myth"http://www.kpfa.org/archive/id/64995 who seems to have done this to herself. Other nutritional deficiencies would probably be guaranteed, what type of deficiency dependent on what the local food source for the person lacks. A longstanding scientific history is necessary to understand nutrition. This is probably the main reason, veganism may just not even be possible in a non-scientific society, which can quite fairly be defined as a privileged educated class.

2) Our instincts tend to be kill and rape. Overcoming our violence requires immense amounts of support. Dead flesh tastes fucking great! I love living close to the earth, but people in essentially every tribal society ever, including right now, are significantly more likely to be killed violently than people in cities.

3) Veganism requires planning and organization to create food. Agricultural revolution, industrial revolution, scientific revolution etc. etc.


There's probably a lot more reasons I have for the intuition that veganism is a luxury, but I think those are some decent expressions of my intent. Let me know what sounds wrong with them

"The evidence seems to be clear that a vegan who does not take a b12 supplement will rot their spine out in addition to other things."

One of the biggest myths out there. Why is there then just as much b12 deficient carivoires? Trust me I have looked VERY deep into this. Seriousily..why are there so many carnivoires that are deficient in b12? the theory I think has the most weight behind it is that what is going on most often is a deficiency in b12 absorbtion. Mineral deficiency might play a big role in this.

Also, saying some lady that wrote a book tried a vegan diet and got b12 deficientcy is just a sort of a "so what" point to make. It is like saying someone who eats meat once got cancer..again..so what? This is like classic over-generalization. Many vegan diets are horribly deficient I will admit..but there is no evidence that suggests that a balanced vegan diet cannot be possible without supplements. For me, myself and many others I have met are living proof of this. There is not just one diet called "the vegan diet"..there is really crappy vegan diets and there are really healthy vegan diets and just about 100 other vegan diets inbetween..

You cant lumop groups together like this it does not work. It is like saying all carnivoires will be deficient because some people eat cheese burgers..

The b12 issue is far far more complex than you make it out to sound. People love to bring that one up..but then they never adress the question as to why b12 problems exist across the board, and does not really seem to be just a vegan thing at all..

Do you know what cobalamin is? Cobalamin is created by bacteria..bacteria that is found in all soils and in all wild water..drink spring water, river water etc and you are ingesting cobalamine..eat vegetables from the ground and you are eating cobalamin..I wont get into the idea that cobalamin might be found in some sea vegetables and in fermented foods..we dont even need to go that far.

Drink tap water and eat only washes roots and greens and you are not getting the cobalamine.

There is just not evidence to suggest anyone NEEDS to take a vitamine b12 supplement. Find a spring and drink wild water..pick wild greens and roots etc and eat them out of the ground..grow some vegetables at home and bits of them from the ground..

You can also taker you store bought root vegetables like carrots etc that have the cobalamine washed off and put them in some dirt for a little while and healthy bacteria will produce more cobalamin on the surface for you to then eat.

Dont buy into BS mythologies and do more research.

I personally know one one woman who has been vegan for about 17 years and has never taken b12 supplements, is nearly 40 and runs marathons..the woman can probly run circles around most 20 year old carnivoires.

Here is a good question..why was I b12 deficient as a carnivoire? Why did all my b12 deficiency symptoms dissapear as a raw vegan, drinking only wild sping water and lots of greens right from the ground where I wild craft them?

Veganism is also easy for poor people if they live in a tropical forest environment..such as thailand etc..but they would have to be outside the city near the tropical fruit forests.

here is one source that PROVES in rat studies that fermented plant products can reverse vitamine b12 deficiency.

http://www.sciencenews.o..._Brew_a_B_Vitamin_Boost

So it is there in non animal products. Of course the ammounts found in that fermented tea are not a whole lot..but for people who regularily eat lots of cultured vegan foods like kimchi and miso etc there are enough claims of reversing b12 deficiency that I tend to think the whole b12 vegan thing is propeganda put out there by the meat industry.

That study only accounts for this one tea as well..the rats were given nothing else and still the deficiency was reverses..and faster than the rats who were given a b12 supplement. It does not take into account the b12 found in wild water or roots and greens right from the ground..the intake of sea vegetables and other cultured foods.

Jamie thanks for the response

First let me say, I've been mostly vegan for 3 years, and vegetarian for 7 years before that, I believe that veganism or something close to it is the necessary path of our future as humans.

The 'mostly' limiter in my case is for the "paris exemption", and honey. I never liked honey a lot, I don't really eat it anyway, so I've never spent time researching deeply and coming to a conclusion on bee treatment. For me the paris exemption is only acceptable when my deep intuition believes that refusing offered food will only make the offerer dislike vegans, clearly causing more harm than good. I've been at this long enough that eating animal products by myself is essentially a complete non-temptation, and I do not "cheat".

Because I believe in veganism, in practicing non-violence to the greatest extent possible, I would love to believe that our ancestors were vegan, and that our bodies are designed to survive perfectly off of plants. There was a point in my life where this seemed the likely truth to me. Alas, reality seems to consistently show that an evolutionarily significant amount of our ancestors were extremely violent to each other and to other animals, and ate other animals to survive. Also, there seems to be some co-evolution, as far as things like cow/goat milk etc. So be it. Our gut is designed to be omnivorous, but at least it's clearly not carnivorous, and at least fruits and vegetables are clearly healthy for us, and there is relatively little nutrition required from animal products.

I am aware of the complexity of the b12 issue. I like the theory that current industrial farming prevents humans and animals from obtaining b12, including that current meat eaters are deficient because the animals themselves are deficient because of the practice. Whether or not our ancestors got enough b12 essentially from eating dirt is a nice theory, and one I hope to be proven true. However, at this point in our knowledge, professionally gathered evidence shows that vegans are more likely to be deficient in b12. That's kind of the end of the story for right now. It's important to encourage people to research the issue, but the best shorthand at this point in history, is "take a b12 supplement, so your spine doesn't rot." The worst thing that can happen for the advance of veganism is sick vegans. It's not acceptable.

Veganism doesn't need to be part of our current genetics for it to be right path. Taking a couple inexpensive supplements is not a big deal. But every vegan is an ambassador, and my current perspective is that those who would support the advance of veganism must encourage vegans to be healthy, and just stay on the safe side.




If you have any professional studies of any non-industrial vegan societies you have found useful, I would love for you to share them and I will share them with others, this is an issue important for me

Look into the book "left in the dark".

The evolutionary theory that the paleo diets etc are based on is not really that sound when looked at more closely. There is alot of other evidence that does point to the fact that way back when we origionally evolved such complex nervous systems, our primate ancestors were tropical forest dwelling fruitarians. The complex chemical makeup of tropical fruit diets high in things like figs etc, high in steroid inhibators, homrmones and neurotransmitters, and with some greens and nuts/seeds can be argued to be responsible for the evolution of such a nervous system.

While it is true that that diet would not have been predominant in the last 200,000 years, there is still no evidence to really say that the "paleo" diets put forth today are responsible for any evolutionary advantages other than it helped us survive in less than ideal climates.

My main thing is that a 100% store bought vegan diet, and a typcial western vegan diet is a poor approximation of a truely balanced diet the way it could have been way back..most vegans do not drink wild water nor do they go out and gather their own wild foods etc..alot of them just eat conventional GMO crap and drink toxic tap "water".

I am glad this thread has been bumped as my life has seen some considerable change since seeing this film. The day after I watched it, a vegetarian cook book arrived in the post, turns out my other half had been doing some shopping! What a coincidence. Over the last couple of weeks every meal I have had has been vegetarian, besides one where I indulged in a steak.

This weekend just gone I did eat meat a few times as we were staying at my girlfriends mothers house and she had planned a few meat based dishes, so it would have been rude to shun her efforts. I am by no means going to be fully vegetarian as I do enjoy meat, but the sources I will get it from are going to be carefully monitored, and it will be eaten as a treat, rather than a staple as it has been in the past.

Do you know what the funny thing is? When I wasn't eating meat I didn't miss it! I didn't crave it and I felt great, I have also been eating less compulsively for the sake of it. This is a very encouraging and telling thing for me. I have also found that I have been farting a lot less, which has been nice for my fair lady The farting ramped itself up this last weekend as well which confirms my suspicions that meat = farty Purge.

I have encouraged my girl to watch the film as well, but can't bare watching it again.



Very good point here. I often preach this approach to meat eaters who have issues with seeing animals die, let alone kill themselves. I have, and would shoot animals for my dinner plate. I have no issue doing so, how ever it is impractical for most people for a couple of reasons:

- I live in the UK where owning a gun is a very difficult thing. It is not like the US where you can find a gun shop just around the corner, and getting the correct documentation / authorisation to own one is something that is no easy task, particularly if, like me, you live in a city. Which leads me to my next point:

- Finding some land where you can hunt. This land is often owned by wealthy land owners / farmers who will only let you go hunting on their land for some considerable £££ - things like pheasant shooting are big business for these people. If / when I can find some land and attain a gun legally and safely, i will be happy to hunt my own rabbits / pheasants etc for the pot.

I pretty well agree with all of this

I will look into that book, I haven't heard of it before. I don't buy off on the paleo idea, especially that - even if there was a point in our history where our ancestors only hunted, that does not define our complete digestive evolutionary needs.

Nothing wrong with being privately educated old bean

No not at all, just the privileged educated class sounded a bit elitist but ineffable cleared up what he meant so its all good.

My dad has just been diagnosed with b12 deficiencies hes been veggie for 30 odd years, ill direct him to this thread!

anyone that is b12 deficient should seriousily concider that they may be also mineral deficient in general and have absorbtion problems. You can eat the b12 you want..if you have absorbtion problems it wont help.

I'd like to see that evidence. Evidence I've heard of seems to show our ancestors as likely hunters--including stone tools for cutting that are millions of years old, i.e., belonging to the most ancient hominids.

go read the book I said to read. I am not about to sit here and search for every single source in an entire book. The studies are out there if you search for them. Gunna have to read the book to understand why I think these things.

btw..I meant to say 200 million years I think and not 20,000 years. I am not 100% sure on that number though I have not looked into it in a while.

http://leftinthedark.org.uk/