I don't know the term REBAL, so I can't say for sure if it is the same thing, but I am familiar with creating shields, programming auras, and other such things.

A basic protective sphere is a good idea to build and re-energize from time to time. It will probably not completely protect you from disaster and certainly won't be able to accomplish things you couldn't do yourself... in the context of AP, it could be considered like locking your doors when you leave your house. Anyone really intent on getting in will probably still be able to, but it discourages local teens, stray dogs, and neighbors who came to ask for a cup of sugar from just coming right in.

Wow, this was one of the most intense and challenging threads I've ever encountered on Nexus!

Guys, can you please suggest several good starting places, guides, books, videos, anything useful in working and developing these skills? I was quite interested in lucid dreaming several years ago, and vaguely heard about astral projection, but gradually dropped my interest when I discovered the world of psychedelics. Now I feel like giving them another more serious try.

HP, the spectrum of experience you're describing left me in complete awe... I used to be very skeptical about these phenomena - looking at them through the lenses of the current scientific paradigm - but gradually evolved to something more close to William James' radical empiricism, so I can't find any reason why one would doubt the validity of what you have just described here. Is there any thread in here where I could read some more about your spiritual path, your growth and the "checkpoints" on the way, or could you share something about it here? I think it will make a very rewarding read for many of us in the dawn of our journeys.

Merci Paulsd.

There are quite a few interesting threads that might meet your criterion. I don't have relevant links on hand, but I am sure if you mess around with the Nexus Search feature for a few minutes you can find days of reading... hehehe.

Good luck on your burgeoning journey. I am sure it will be filled with wonder and amazement should you be serious enough to persevere. These things are not as difficult as they seem at first, but they do take some dedication. Riding a bike is orders of magnitude easier than AP, and even that is not something people generally master the first handful of times they try.

In the time since this thread has lain fallow, I did discover a secret trick that could probably speed up the amount of time it would take a new practitioner to develop this skill. It occurred to me that when my energetic body was "fully charged" via chi kung or pranayama exercises that this AP stuff was significantly easier. Charging up the 3 major chakras (navel, heart & 3rd eye in that order) regularly with a simple seated meditation where you touch the front of each energy center with 2 fingers while emptying your mind to only concentrate on the sensation of that touch works like a charm. As you breath deeply, your mind establishes a connection to the sensation which directs incoming chi or prana to that location. After a few days of doing this kind of meditation twice daily, it feels as if one can just jump up and out of their body when the time comes.

Good luck.

[note: Do not take any of the above advice to be scientific in nature or anything other than the subjective experiences of a fairly regular entheogen user.]

Why? If one can really astral project it would be dead simple to prove it to the person asking for the proof. Now I can understand not wanting to go sign up to prove it in a science lab, but to a very close friend or relative? Why not? Why should anyone every take anyone elses word about anything without evidence?



Well this I can agree with. I mean the world at large is pretty hostile to things that don't fit neatly into the 'world' view.
But how do you reconcile it with people like me? I'm pretty clearly open minded about it. I believe it may very well be possible.
However I see no reason to form yet another unfounded belief which I may eventually have to unwind mentally.
Personally I'd rather reserve judgement until I see proof from someone I trust...such as yourself...or until such time as I prove it to myself.

To date I have had lucid dreamed a handful of times...full blown wake up in the matrix bad ass lucid dreams. Peak life experience..
I have also had sleep paralysis more times that I care to recollect in my life.
I've also heard pop sounds and sign flashes of intense light falling asleep.

Also recently I had n experience were my body fell asleep while watching TV, but I felt as though I was still sitting there watching TV...I'd guess this was probably VERY close to what is described as Astral projection. I was aware of my body asleep and I was still aware of the fact that I was watching TV...like nothing ever changed. Very strange...kinda freaked me out actually!

So I'm very open minded about it. And I'd gladly go into an experiment with a very open mind with someone. I'd even agree to never mention the results one way or the other if the person so desired. I'm just genuinely curious about the reality or lack there of. I honestly don't think it's a tall order for people to ask for proof on things that CAN certainly be proven. I mean lucid dreaming is WAY WAY WAY harder to prove, yet Dr Lebarge did just that. He proved to the entire western scientific mind. Why can't something similar be done with astral projection?

Just curious questions nothing more.

Peace

What I meant by this, and is kind of present in a number of my posts about this and other subjects, is not that someone should believe in something they have no proof of, but rather that someone else seems to believe that they have had that experience. It is no different than someone who goes out on a walk and comes back telling you about some implausible experience they had while on their walk. Unless someone cares enough about your belief or disbelief to organize proof for you, any experience they recount to you is simply their subjective anecdote.

I know you to be an open minded person, and if we lived nearby each other and your interest was very profound... I would consider organizing some form of test with you. This would be a favor to you, as I would have basically nothing to gain from this.

A wise and intelligent position to take. One that I would never discourage any person from; one that any truly critical thinker would naturally adopt IMO.

Lucid dreaming is truly amazing. It can be anyway.

I would suggest to you that if you can remember a handful of times you managed to do it, it is likely that you have accomplished it at least 10 or 20x as much, as even 5% dream recall is rather a lot for most people.

You might want to work on training your dreaming abilities as you seem to appreciate how profound those experiences can be... also, developing the basic dream skills carries over into any astral projection work you might get into.

It sounds like you are rather close to having this experience directly for yourself... in which case, you will be able to test it on your own.

Unfortunately for all the interested Nexians, my abilities are not so profound as to be able to traverse continents reliably or track down people I have only met anonymously online. I actually believe such things might be possible. (just my belief, not a point of debate) However, from my experiences, I would gather that quite frequently one does not actually AP into this exact world, but perhaps alternate or parallel realities, dream worlds that closely resemble this one, or any other of a myriad possible versions of this. The fact that a certain percentage of my AP experiences have either been dreams from the outset, or shifted into dreams at some point does not diminish or negate the experiences I have had that convinced me that APing is a real phenomenon (for my subjective reality anyway). APing and LDing are clearly related phenomena, and seeing that I have had success WILDing from an AP without reentering my body... I would imagine that the borders between parallel realities, higher dimensions, dreamstates and the like are even thinner when you are not animating your flesh & bones, but flying free. (or seeming to anyway)

I can't say what exactly is objectively real, what the true nature of our existence is, or other such profound things that I might feel I glimpse at peak moments, but for all intents and purposes lie outside of my ability to consistently ascertain. The idea that I could prove my AP experiences to another human being involves a number of assumptions about the objective nature of our reality, the independent existence of people I encounter, and that this is not all just a dream... among other things that I can not prove or be certain of. Thus, whatever the outcome of my testing, the results will still always be somewhat questionable.

As a very regular lucid dreamer, I can tell you that I have organized a number of tests along these lines within a dreamstate... while totally lucid, while convinced I was awake, and in various states in between. The majority of times I set out to prove something was real to someone, I wound up only proving that the entire framework we were engaged in was illusory.

I hope you understand JD, that I appreciate fully where you are coming from. I also realize that some of what I am saying here might be interpretable as a cop-out or something that a charlatan might come up with to defend outrageous claims. Such is the nature of the beast. But what it always comes back to, is that I have no real interest in influencing other people to believe anything. It matters very little to me whether people believe in AP. Most people I meet hold significantly more dangerous and annoying beliefs about reality that seem to contradict my direct experience. That's just how it is.

Be well friend,
HF

Its not lack of proof which hinders progress but peoples fear of the unknown

That's very true. But you can't rush it either.

I've been away from this stuff for a while, simply because I could not progress in a visible way at the time, and I thought it's best to let it come to me by itself, rather than pushing it.

Saturday night, I had a strong feeling and thought I should give it a try again. What happened next is described below.

19:30 - 20:00 - I've set my alarm clock at 21:30, intending to just take a nap.
21:30 - Setting off the alarm, I'm too sleepy to wake up at this time. It occurs to me that I could try APing. I'm semi-conscious, I go to the bathroom and then lay back in bed. As I sit there, my intention is to AP in order to: 1) look at my hands while in the AP state; or 2) look at my physical body.

A few minutes after laying down, I entered the vibrational stage. To my surprise, this lasted for a very short while, and I was able to cope with it very well. The intensity built up very fast, and I recognized what other people described as "The Carrier Wave" - it was a sound gradually getting thinner and thinner, sort of a "tttzzzzzzzzzzzziiiiiiiiiii". Normally, I wouldn't be able to keep myself calm, and my muscles would get really tense and it would all be very hard to take. Not this time; I even wondered what was the fuss I was making all about. During the next 30-40 seconds, the space around me "built itself up" until I was surrounded by a beautiful wallpaper of light bubbles which started to form a totally psychedelic surrounding, and then everything just seemed to have exploded into blackness. I looked at my hands this whole time, alternating viewing my body with looking at the transforming shapes. This provided a great increase in the visual detail perceived. It seemed peculiar that I saw myself dressed differently than what I had actually on me, but I didn't stress it.

Okay, so back to the darkness. I was now eager to separate and after a couple of tries, I was on my feet in my living room. It seems that for me, getting up slowly doesn't work. Instead, what I'd do, is "jump out" of the body in the same manner that you'd jump on your feet while laying down on the bed. Works great every time. At this point, I'm in my living room, but I'm in the middle of it, a couple of feet away from where my actual bed is (or I'm just confused and couldn't make out my surroundings very well). I remember that I'm here to look at my physical body sleeping in bed.

I turn around to look at myself, and I'm shocked when I see a human figure laying on the bed, in the exact same position that I fell asleep in. I knew it was me, but my mind just couldn't accept it, and I moved closer to confirm it as my curiosity grew bigger and bigger. When I got close enough, there was no doubt that the person sleeping was actually myself! I reached my hand and put my index finger on the middle of my head. Immediately, something totally unexpected happened: I lived, simultaneously, 3 moments at the same time:
- one in which I am in my "etheric" body and I'm touching the body I'm seeing in my bed
- one in which I am in my physical body and I could sense that something very very cold touched my forehead
- another one in which I am aware of both the above scenarios and they both happen at the same time.

I woke up right after that, in complete awe for the experience. I said my thanks and pondered about it for a while.

Now, this is very hard to put into words, but it was pretty scary at the time, while still completely fascinating. Anyone else experienced this "living in pieces" thing? I thought for a moment there that I could possibly die if my projected self would meet my physical self, but the fact that there were 3 of me, instead of 2, made me question that lol =)

I believe I had an advantage there, because as I said, the physical body that I was perceiving while AP-ing (and the bed in which it was sitting) had a different position than my current configuration. I never had my bed placed in the middle of the living room, so this is why it was so startling. Now, one possible explanation could be that maybe my mind was trying to make sense of distances as it perceived them in the real world, so I accepted that for the time being, pending a double check next time when I go there.

hahaha...the weirdest thing is that I cannot find even ONE single instance of someone trying to "touch himself" while AP-ing. I'm the first who thinks touching your physical self was a good idea? It's not really something I'd want to repeat, but just wondering

Later edit: in my "investigation", I stumbled upon a reasonable explanation from someone who knows his stuff, I believe. It's from the Astral Dynamics book, by Robert Bruce, chapter called "The Reflecting Nature of Hind". This book is in the Nexus Files section, that's where I got it from, so thanks to the Nexus I "accidentally" started reading it today, found it very interesting (I don't believe in accidents, but rather in synchronicities, hence the quotes). Anyway, here's the data:



And another passage, which accurately describes what I experienced:



To sum it up: WOW! Or better yet, holy shit! Just thinking about the implications of that gives me the chills.

once i thought i AP'd but i think now it was just a rather huge increase in memory for a short period of time.

I drove 4 hours south and stoppped in gas station for beverage before my first ever sensory deprivation appointment. once i got into the tank 30 minutes into it when i became fully relaxed i felt from my waist down just drop, even though it didnt really. i became more relaxed and started to back travel from the tank, then the parking lot of the float center, then the gas station. but i wasnt just thinking of each spot i was traveling to those spots.

it really felt like AP, but it wasnt =\

@rjb

Very very interesting addition to this thread. I am still assimilating the info, and will have to dig out the book you quoted and give it a good reading when I am not so busy.

As for touching oneself during an AP, it happens rather regularly for me when I enter or exit and linger near my sleeping form. It can be ridiculously odd. Heheheeh. The sensation of a consciousness that encompasses both the one you are using while APing, the awareness of the body itself, and a myriad of other things simultaneously can be staggering.

I will pop back to this thread later...

[I'm surprised this thread hasn't been moved to the TTLG subforum, actually]

Bi-location. SWEET!

I've experienced it a couple times several years ago when I was really into OBE's. What you accomplished is actually a pretty advanced technique for "exercising" the energy body and creating your "double". According to some shamanistic/esoteric/magick paths, once you get good at it you can project this energy body to distant physical locations which, with enough energy poured into it can be seen by other people in consensus/"real time" reality. This is true sorcery. Imagine the implications and possibilities!

Thank you to everyone, especially to H-Fool, for the valuable info in this thread and related lucid dreaming threads. The whole issue of the difference/sameness of lucid dreams and OBE's is VERY controverial in the various communities. Personally, I think it becomes a non-issue if one sticks to the phenomenology of the experience and how it is most productively used for spiritual/meditative purposes. By the way, here is a link to a VERY interesting book on the subject. The book is extremely practical in that it emphasizes "how-to" technique and avoids theory. Be warned though, the author has two strong opinions that I encourage you to not get sidedtracked by. Firstly, he equates OBE and lucid dreams. Secondly, he does NOT approve of "molecular assistence", i.e. entheogens.

http://obe4u.com/files/SOBT.pdf

eH

so in cliff-note style, to AP you lay in bed and let your body fall asleep while retaining your mental awareness, you then situp or twist out of your body and than you can travel around?

If you knew me and i put a random number on a sheet in my room, could you AP over here, read the number and tell it to me in the morning?

I personally don't see much of a difference between LD/AP either, except maybe in LD you have more control over the content of the dream, but as I'm not experienced with this technique, I can't say for sure. But I agree there's a lot of hype stemming from an egotistical point of view, mainly because someone is trying to "be better" than someone else. However, I do not condone the controversy - I can't even imagine where it could start from - simply because it doesn't have a useful outcome [for me, anyway].

Thanks for the book, will give it a try sometimes, looks interesting as a technique encyclopedia



In a nutshell, that would be the process, yes.



I don't see why that wouldn't be possible. Well, not for me, not at this point, as I still have a lot to learn, but I'm thinking that for someone with a certain experience, this would be a piece of cake. Dream cake



Interesting resources to touch on:

Lucidology 101 (youtube)
Astral Dynamics - Robert Bruce
Far Journeys - Robert Monroe
Ultimate Journey - Robert Monroe
Exploring the world of Lucid Dreaming - Stephen LaBerge

Well... the difference is that APing purports to let you out of your body in an "astral" form to let you wander around the "real" world while your physical form lies there inanimate. LDing is the art of waking up within a dream, and makes no claim on having any connection to your waking life, but rather allows the exploration and sculpting of dream worlds.

This is not a minor difference, or all that hard to understand. People don't make this distinction out of any kind of superiority complex, but because these are rather different things.

IMHO, they do intersect, though. There are realms that are in between the two states, and it is relatively easy to pass from one state to the other volitionally. At any rate, if your AP experiences resemble dreams and show you a world that is different from the one you lay down in... you may be simply having a very specific kind of lucid dream that we tend to put in the category of "false awakenings" despite the fact that you may never have lost consciousness and actually WILDed directly into this alternate version of your real life.

Although it seems simple enough to prove, the spectrum of consciousness while in this unique mind awake/body asleep state can cloud things up.

Like I said:



So even though we may be perceiving consensus/real-time reality while out-of-body, we may be perceiving multiple realities at the same time, leading to confusion of perception.

Okay, thanks for clearing that up for me. However, I wanted to bring about the higher astral planes; are those different from an LD environment? I'm asking because I've seen many astral planes described (around 7 I think), and I'd like to know how can you distinguish between AP/LD, given that you end up in one of the higher planes by accident. If that's even possible, of course. I know that you can quickly check if you're having an LD/AP by looking at some text or electronic equipment with a display, looking away, and then back. If nothing changes, then you're APing. BUT, the mind also has this special feature - forgetting - which is all the more present in AP/LD experiences, so if you suddenly wake up somewhere you've never been, there's a high chance of forgetting to do this reality check. Agreed? Or is it just my own memory that needs a bit of work out in the astral planes until it "settles", so to speak?

Also, do you have experience jumping from one astral plane to another? If so, how is that done? I mean, I can see how you can project in the lowest astral plane (the one closest to our physical reality), but how can you go someplace you've never been and don't know what to expect/look for?

Thanks!

When people talk about the so-called higher astral planes, it becomes a much muddier soup. I would say it is orders of magnitude harder to tell if you are dreaming or not if you project to a place that has little or no resemblance to your waking life word. And, for all intents and purposes, the distinction matters less and less the farther you get from your waking reality. Whether you are actually exploring some higher astral realm, higher dimension, or other supernatural or spirit realm... or are merely dreaming you are begins to become a moot point. What tends to matter more is whether the information you are receiving is useful to you, and whether the activities you are engaging in are beneficial to you or not.

Jumping from one astral plane to another is no different than jumping from one dreamworld to another. You have to garner enough willpower and intention and teleport. (generally easier to do at first if you use a portal of some kind and program it to take you where you want to go)

In the end, it doesn't matter what we call the places we visit. It matters somewhat whether these places are all in our heads, or if they are objectively real "external realms," but even then... who can say if this world is actually objectively real and not some sort of dream?

thanks for the responses guys. rjb ill check out those resources.