We were athiests when we married. I am still pretty much a spiritual atheist. My husband remains the same. We have never much been into societal norm or plugged into popular culture. I don't fear being alone, but it will suck testicles when that day comes. We cannot share thoughts but we are damned close. We were born alone but we can share our experience and our love, we can reach out to other people. And we most certainly do not have to die alone. It may not be for everyone but to say un-natural, when it has been documented down through time and across cultures seems odd. Also, there are other species who are known to mainly pair-bond for life. Just because we've (as a culture) screwed up marriage does not make it un-natural.



Most definately yes. As I stated the signature on the piece of paper changed only two things for us - our tax filing status and the fact that we now referred to each other in mixed company as "my husband/wife." Marriage is just a word. Our pair-bond is for life.

We never had kids and now we cannot. Still going strong.

-Wait a minute, Pandora. Are you saying that these other pair-bonding species were actually married???



Most definately yes. As I stated the signature on the piece of paper changed only two things for us - our tax filing status and the fact that we now referred to each other in mixed company as "my husband/wife." Marriage is just a word. Our pair-bond is for life.[/quote]

-Ahh, thank you, Pandora for answering my question. I guess marriage has it's tax benefits, and husband/ wife wierd terminology status. I wonder if you would be just as happy if you didn't own each other or belong to each other till death as marriage typically suggests. I also wonder if marriage is particularly DMT friendly, since DMT has no time for elaborate bullensheizer.

a marriage is two souls uniting as one for the rest of their time here. It's a commitment. Promising that no matter what happens you will always work things out. it's about starting a family of your own and growing together, branching away from the family that raised you....to me at least.


This is a good thread by the way

I am saying they are pair-bonded for life as my husband and I and many humans are. Marriage is just a word, like other features of culture. The feelings and bond are beyond words and are more real than any sophisticated spell of language can attempt to synthesise, be it with a single word or endless rants.

OK, so there's the institution of marriage. It's an expensive piece of paper, it's submitting to societal control, it's a long forced march down a featureless corridor of dullness and barely supressed resentment.

Unless you marry the right person. I've been with my wife for 20 years. We are both artists, stylistically opposite, both difficult personalities, who somehow fit each other like a yin and yang. Don't marry anyone who is not your soulmate.

Marriage is all the things I said above- but more importantly, it's a gesture to your partner: I stand before every person of importance in our lives (literally or figuratively) and declare my exclusivity to you, for life. I do this extreme binding thing because I think you are so freaking awesome that I will do whatever it takes to tell the world that you and I are together.

Everything here is my opinion. I know there are happily married couples, and I have no problem with that. They're just not in the town in which I live. That's all.

First to be integral to thy being true to thyself, courtship is suppose to demonstrate trust. When either one of you feels open to the other, and those feelings develop devotion-ally towards a feeling of obligation towards the need to declare your love, then the other person should be given space to see if they reciprocate that same kind of attachment. Again, it's innate. The more you try to get it into solid concrete grounds such as written contract, you have just sniped the wings off the freedom. Resentment attachment, and feeling smothered will impede growth and ultimately result in infidelity emotionally or physically unless both people keep their human animal restrained which is in my opinion antithetically wrong and against the beauty of free expression which in my experience is the beautifulest reason to share a relationship in the first place.

In short all marriages have three parties: The groom, bride, and the state. I do not like threesomes where it's in writing that one party can walk all over one another whenever they please. In my experience when a woman sees her man is naive enough to sign a wedding contract, she has no respect for him, walks all over him, steals from him, cheats on him, leaves him, and garnishes his wages just to teach him a lesson, and she gets away with this thanks to marriage. A man must keep his power, but remain loyal. In my culture, marriage emasculates a man stripping him of his dignity. Let me financially enslave you (woman) so you can physically dominate me (man) Since I need you (woman) and you want me (man) let's get my insecurity about you being a provider out of the way (legal contract) so I can feel the appropriateness of fantasizing about having a family between the sheets, and raise my parasitic brood in peace knowing the police will siphon my 50% so I can spend it on myself or the children if I so decide at any time I feel particularly selfish.

I would never leave a person in a worse off condition then where I found them, and do not allow finances to get entangled. Even healthy co-dependence needs to be checked sometimes. Needless to say all my experience in relationships in general points towards more intimacy, and a deeper soul connection without marriage than with.

It seems all these nightmares never come from relationships, but almost always do (in my town) with marriages.

Marriage use to be a beautiful thing. I wish things were like they were less the discrimination women suffered. I as a male sorely wish to have a partner I can trust not to cheat on me. Alas, I have to settle for less yet the supposed security marriage gives you both against infidelity in my experience is illusory. I cannot tell you how many married women attempt to stray. I have turned every single one of their propositions down. This is not to say the problem is not merely one sex; both are at fault. I see the function of marriage degrade toward polyamory and wife swapping so often I forgot what else it is good for (to married couples in my town) in the first place.

On the other hand I see working marriages as a beautiful functioning comforting reassurance, the vows as sacred, and the pair bonding established as instrumental in forging the fertile grounds necessary for a child to feel welcomed and wanted in this world and as a life as a whole. The love that surrounds it is sacred, and the social importance of having a female and male role model for a child is instrumental as is the exampling the couple demonstrates between each other for the child to witness healthy interaction. The challenges marriage poses lead to compromise, and develop strength that keeps the world from interceding. The humility marriage engenders in either party pushing their selfish needs aside for a child is necessary for society to function on one level. On another level the ferment of commitment required in raising a child is nothing to sneeze at so far in the obligation marriage engenders. The public puts constraint on the appropriateness of divorce. The potential for divorce calls the decency of either party into question. Threats of ridicule, religious guilt, and the fear of social estrangement keep unhappy couples together. Even when divorce is a reasonable act of self defense for the children's sake, so often the only reason people stay together is in order for them to preserve their identity in a peer group as a married couple. I see marriage as much a risk as I see it a relief. It's entirely up to the decency of the individuals. Sometimes it is financially advantageous for couples to wed, but I do not feel this reason alone is enough to justify such a requirement.

Love itself is beautiful. If you marry out of fear of the other person leaving you otherwise, I advise you contemplate the following. I've heard it said by many women that a mans fear she will leave him gives her permission to cheat on him. Since we are born alone, and die alone, and since separation from the creation causes suffering, and love in a relationship helps us on one level where unconditional or soul love helps on another, we owe it to our self to find contentment in our self and not in another. In the face of death we run from it surrounding ourselves with the comfort love provides which is temporary. I can't help but feel the union and the dance of courtship is too sacred an experience to put conditions upon like how marriage does in so many circumstances. This brings to mind the importance of knowing what it represents to the other person first.

Everything is possible with love. Marriage is not a prerequisite.

See, that's just fine, Pandora. But then there's this institution that tells you "now you're married", "now you're not". If people just hooked up, and chose to live their lifes as pair-bonds for life, and called themselves married, that's another story and in that case, I'm already married. When you got certain game rules that you need to follow imposed by a 3rd party which will never spend a day with either of you, it's no longer that.



I believe that this is just your ego shouting out in the middle of the street "I own this person", while pointing fingers at your lovely partner. Not cool. I even find it degrading. A gesture, yes. Control? Also, yes. I do not want control and I do not want to be controlled. We got plenty of people claiming to do that already. I just want my wish respected, just like I respect yours. Why do we need to own each other in order to be able to work together? It sounds to me like marriage becomes an impediment in this situation, not a very helpful aid at all.

Thanks, blacklist666, I believe your essay pretty much wraps up everything I was thinking...

-Yes, pair bonded for life, but not married.



-YEP, and it's just a label, nothing more. It is actually quite meaningless, and marriage doesn't occour in nature!!. People can also end up unhappily married, as people change. It's almost like marriage is simply a way of boxing 2 people together "till death do us part". It really serves only for tax purposes, and being approved by a society programmed to think of marriage as something "decent". It's simply CONTROL based on fear. Pair bonded for life is something far more respectworthy than marriage (if you want to think of it as respectworthy , even though this is just an opinion), because it is a truly free choice, without any conditions. Therefore a really honest test of love for one another without the fear of "breaking a contract to god!": A far more honest and fearless choice.

-I am happy you are happy Pandora, but Marriage has got nothing to do with it, being together has. And you can be together for life without being married, can't you..?? .....

Everything said in this discussion so far, both pro and anti marriage, is totally valid. We are all different, and marriage is not for everybody. In fact, I would go a step further and say that most people probably should not get married, just like most people should probably not be parents or sea captains or cybernauts. It's an arrangement that can lead to misery for the wrong people, but can fit like a glove for the right ones.

Christian- you have misread my statement. I am not declaring ownership, but togetherness. The ownership is mutual- believe me, my partner is an empowered woman with no desire to be owned. You are right though at least in part- my ego does want to declare this to the world. As much of our public interaction is handled via the ego, this is one of the primary functions of the marriage contract. But as I said before, all this is small compared to the gesture between two individuals- something that is intended as an extreme, ultimate gesture.

As far as it being a threesome with the state, I have to say that I have not felt the presence of the state in out bed in our entire 20 years. That comes up in a failed marriage. Again, don't marry someone who is not your soulmate. Not sure? Don't do it.

This is a great discussion, BTW... However, if the person who started the thread was hoping for a little clarity on their own dilemma, it might not be found here. All I can day is, it has to be mutual. If you feel you are being pressured into it, don't do it. That would start the whole thing off on an asymmetrical foot... Not a great start.

It depends on the couple. For me and my wife and many, marriage is the ultimate step/bond for two people to live united 'til death do you part". There are lots of couples who at the same time think just being together is enough...doesnt really matter as long as your happy.

Just found out an hour ago two of my closest friends are getting married this July. Very happy for them

While I completely understand why people feel marriage is BS, Pandora has put it beautifully. I feel the same way about my bride. I've also been married for many, many years and we have survived some unbelievably intense storms. Sticking it out till you get to the warm calming waters is the only way to appreciate where you've been. Of course you don't need any official piece of paper for this, because what I'm referring to has nothing to do with legalities.

"Forgive my disgraceful longevity and this… temporary decrepitude" -Nonno

My wife and I also share something very much like pandora. Smokerx and DogMaTea report the same as well...so...we are not alone, those of us who continue to "work it out". I am very fulfilled to exist in this state with my wife.

One odd thing for me was that even though I had negative opinions about marriage - the "paper contract" and all the other "bad"things I am reading here about marriage - when the time came and my soulmate and I were alone together standing in front of some judge type dude in a little empty room...in order to get that "paper" which would allow us the things pandora mentioned (taxes etc.)...as the legal servant spoke the ceremony words, and as my other half and I responded as appropriate, I found myself filled with emotion, a euphoric feeling that stands unique and powerfully meaningful to this day.

So, the "paper" may not really mean anything, except I would like to share this idea that has occurred to me. Marriage is really about the concept of devoting oneself exclusively to the life of another. I now realize more than ever before in my life that I am willing to do ANYTHING for my wife. ANYTHING. When I unconditionally do for my wife the things that she loves, the love we are becomes greater, and I always know that it is the right thing to do. It makes her happy. I love to make my wife happy. That is what marriage means to me. Why should I care why she wants what she wants? She may have her own needs/desires that are different than mine, and that is a beautiful thing. Why should I care if she wants to get married?
I should care if she wants to get married simply because I love her so much, she wants to get married, and I will do ANYTHING for her.

Yeah that's well put endo. One thing's for sure, marriage is about sacrifice of the self. It's incredibly challenging but incredibly rewarding. For me, learning to take that bastard side of myself and burn it in the fire on a daily basis. As long as both parties are committed to making it work no matter what, then you naturally end up doing whatever it takes for the other person. I do feel incredibly fortunate though that she supports me in everything I do. I know that's pretty rare.

Needless to say all of this is just my opinion:








Haven't you noticed that what you are describing in that last sentence is a strong aspect of what we call consensual reality? Humans by their nature are game players. At least I believe this is true for every person who has not enjoyed tremendous priveledge in their lives, say for lack of a better term, what the current peasant uprising is calling, the 99%. You would not believe what the game rules are like for a woman, even in this part of the world, as I would not believe what they are for a man with all of this modernity. Same with people who have been oppressed for anything that feels perfectly normal and natural to them or for a fact of their birth.

What you are describing is just a fact of human culture. Pointing it out does not make it special. It just is. This is the way people are.



Why does it have to box people in? Do you live in a super-conservative area? Even Newt Gingrich requested an "open" relationship with one of his ailing wives. Personally monogamy is my path, but I don't judge others. Who's really feeling fear here? I mean you live in a post-modern society that seems to have a fetish for heterosexual pair-bonds rather than open minds, but no one is FORCING you or anyone you know or love to get married, ever. I actually do know of a couple who have been together for over 35 years, hetero, who just never bothered. I told you why it worked for me and might work for others like me. I said I'd be the first to admit it's not for everyone. God didn't play into our marriage or love. God is a fantasy made up by power-hungry men who died thousands of years ago, flushed the beauty of the old world and saddled us with the continuing burdens of patriarchy, hatred and war against the infadel that we enjoy today. Our marriage was officiated by a person who was basically a beauracrat and we made a point of stressing that the vows/ceremony/words she conducted make absolutely NO religious or spiritual references.

And as far as the last sentence of yours, sure, of course we could. Except of having JUST finished paying of those b _ _ _ _ _ _s at the IRS for our 2010 taxes, we might have just finished 2008.

Thanks Pandora for so eloquently defending us (the happily married ones). Just celebrated 15 happy years of marriage yesterday.

Emotional/spiritual benefits aside, there are many other important legal rights that come with marriage besides the tax stuff.

If your girlfriend/boyfriend is critically injured you have no right to visit them in the hospital or participate in any medical decisions. If they die from those injuries, all of their possesions (even the ones they shared with you) belong to their closest living relative. That means the house you bought together might be half owned by someone you've never met. Or maybe someone you have met, that you wish you had never met.

Kinda grim things to consider, but very important if something awful happens to your pair-bonded, but not married partner.

I didn't really understand why the "piece of paper" was important before I got married. It was obviously very important to my (future) wife, and I loved her more than words can express (still do). So I said "why not?" and married her.

Best decision I've ever made.

Pokey

In a country ridden by mental illness, schizophrenia, and rampant with infantile disrespect for the geometries of family, marriage is lately somewhat of a joke, there is little question.
And now the paperwork, the laws themselves which bind our social framework, have lost their heft their potency, their worth, also. Old traditions are falling away like dead skin, and still many think only of pulling it all back over themselves, helpless to let go, reluctant to move on.

rjb
There's nothing as liberating as questioning your own convictions.. pardon, but it is no small amusement to find the answer, your answer, waiting at the bottom end to every of these stubborn protests. However warranted in their respective grounds, the truth between the lines rings clear doesn't it?.
The beauty of marriage lies in abandon.

Hehe...I want to assure everyone that I did not create this thread to find a comfortable answer to a personal problem. I believe that I have made my view clear on this matter. However, this does not mean that it shouldn't be looked into more deeper, even if not for my own sake. I understand and respect the fact that some people choose to do this, but like Guyomech said, it's not for everyone. Like having kids shouldn't be for everyone. It's an act that should demand both parties full acknowledgement of the situation and its implications. I am merely trying to become aware of ALL these implications in order to make the best decision for my situation. I can't talk this with people who only get married because they're parents would disapprove of them living together otherwise, or marrying just so that they could benefit from they're partner financially, or simply marrying for an increase in social status; this is why I brought this to the Nexus, to be looked at with other kinds of eyes. Those are all poor choices to me, and the problem is that they influence the whole society I am living in, so I can't be passive towards it.

For me, it wouldn't make any sense - legally or financially - to get married. This is why it only has the status of a game for me. Pandora noticed this beautifully, and I totally agree: this is the way people are; but that also means it's not the best way to be, we ought to be striving for better, always; no? Renouncing those games is a step towards that, IMO. As far away as that might be. Like John Lennon said: "You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one"

But, Pokey also made some very valid points, which I will further look into, because they make real sense. Now I will think about this: do I want to be placed in the position in which to make a life changing decision for another human being? That's a hard one, I will see what my beloved partner thinks about this, too. I may take this into my hands, but not without her being aware of these things. I am always prepared to admit I made a wrong choice, when other better choices arrive, and this puzzles a lot of people. That's what I mean by my signature.

As a final note, this isn't and was not meant as a form of protest, or bashing some party or defending another. It's about sharing views, and getting a bigger picture. Understanding the nature of life. It's why we're all here, isn't it?

Much love and many thanks,

I haven't read all the posts before, but I agree with your first post. You don't need it but I got a counter question, if it is important for your girlfriend to have a marriage what is the disadvantage for you if you do it? I think marriage, phd or beeing 18 is a landmark shure it doesn't make you an adult with 18 but it gives you confidence and it communicates to the world what you are (or at least an orientation). Another point is it's a celebrity I mean you could celebrate your birthday a day before you get X old or three weeks after it you would be nearly the same guy. Such events are important for the reason of communication. You tell her, her parents your parents, your friends etc. that you want to spend propably the rest of your life with her. And as I said does it hurt you?