So your view, is that since they are not positively influencing the world and can not be changed, they are not worth respect? Or is it something else. I'm still not clear on your attitude, except for a general insulting demeanor towards the general populace of humanity.



Provider A is under no obligation to sell his services for anything less than the value he can obtain from them. Consumer A is under no obligation to spend his earned resources on anyone but himself. If Consumer B is incapable of having a "good life" because Consumer A is willing to pay more for Provider A's product, that is not the fault of Provider A or Consumer A.

While still tragic, it is no one's fault. In what I consider somewhat of an analogy, it is not the Giraffe's fault that the Kudu can not eat the leaves at the top of some trees. Giraffe may have plenty of food, and the Kudu may have none; but it does not obligate the Giraffe to give the Kudu the leaves from the tree.

I don't agree with the choice to allow suffering, but I more strongly disagree with the choice to disallow freedom.

You're missing the whole exploitative aspect of capitalism here. Where do the resources come for Provider A's goods and services? Oh, that's right, they were ripped out of the Earth and men, women and children were starved, raped and killed so that those resources could be made available...but it's no one's fault...it's just the invisible hand of the market doing what it will (same with those sweatshop workers and the environment and the socio-politically marginalized...it all "just happened...just cuz" )...does that not sound insane to you? Do you not see the huge amount of "invisible" transactions and suffering you are ignoring?

On a positive note: even though it does not go away with age, the more time one's vessel spends in the earthly realm, the more opportunities there are to discover pockets of similar minded folks (like this site). It's just extremely unfortunate that in many cases, such incredibly aware and intelligent people often are forced to spend so much time in the shadows (so as to not upset the status quo).

Economics discussion isn't too related to the current thread, but you're really confusing me. First you disdain the general masses, then you speak of the wrongs committed against them due to an economic system that doesn't try to achieve fairness in distribution.

Capitalism does not exploit anyone except those who make poor decisions. I'm in support of -optional- unions for this very reason. It allows workers to collaborate in making decisions, rather than every man for himself. Capitalism however does not assist those incapable of providing for themselves. That's what family is for, and they still shouldn't be obligated to. I'm a bit of a social darwinist in my support of a mostly laissez-faire capitalism.

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Also, the more people you meet, the faster you meet more of those same types of people. Social networks are exponential. Once you meet someone, you meet their 2 friends, and meet each of their 2 friends, etc.

Caps are in place based on local population size... but moving to a larger population center can resolve that issue.

Yea...like all those Africans who asked to be enslaved by Americans...all the indigenous people across the globe who begged to be slaughtered/enslaved/otherwise exploited for capital gains...and Mother Earth who pleaded for industrial decimation of the global ecosystem...such "poor decisions" they made.



My disdain is for the ignorant masses of privileged consumers (i.e. the vast majority of the populace of the so-called "first world" )...not the disenfranchised masses exploited in the name of industrial/technological "progress" and consumer rights. They're two vastly different "masses" and not easily confused, I hope that clarifies for you.

Capitalism is not bad. In fact Capitalism is pretty much the only fair system ever invented.
The problem is that we have unbridled capitalism that grossly over represents the extremely wealthy.

Snozz, what do you propose? I see so many people RAIL against capitalism and money.

But what would you propose?
How would you sell it to the people?


Personally. I think our only hope out of our problems is capitalism.
I think governments that try to come up with solutions to climate change will fail dramatically.
In fact I'd go so far as to say the only role I think government should have is to quit giving money to oil companies and to raise the price of gas significantly to help 'force' the hand of private enterprise to innovate.

Like it or not, the majority of people in westernized nations (America for sure) have the ability to gain an advanced education and create a great life. You can start from the ghetto and get a PhD and there isn't really anything to stop a person from doing except themselves. Anyone can start a billion dollar business if they have the idea and the drive..no? If that sounds to extreme then what about a million dollar business? Or what about just a successful mam and pop shop?

I mean you don't think the person that tried hard for 8 years of his life and gets an advanced college degree should live the same life as the high school drop out ( I dropped out BTW...then got my shit together later) that works as the garbage man? No. Surely you aren't suggesting a system like that.

Also you talk about consumers and what they buy. Do you think you should be allowed to determine what a person chooses to buy? Who would you be to make such a decision?

How exactly do your wipe away capitalism and have a fair system?

Don't take what I'm saying out of context. I do believe in an element of Socialism.
We need programs to help people out of bad situations, but we also need to have personal accountability.

There is nothing wrong with working hard and getting ahead and creating a nice life for yourself. Capitalism makes this possible for the greatest number of people. IMHO.

So seriously what are your and Jamies grand ideas? How do you fix it and convince people you are right?

No this is not true. The inner city ghetto kid who works so that his family has a roof does not have the time to devote the that make exceptional students that are accepted into doctorate programs.

No you cannot start a billion dollar business if you are poor. you may have the best idea on earth, but getting the capital to start your business is extremely difficult, middle class people can fall back on mom and dad while their billion dollar idea (or million, or even just mom and pop) pans out.

The social mobility in America from the poor to middle class is extremely low. From the middle class to the upper middle class is not bad. But no, poverty is different. A single mother can't go take time off from her job to pursue a degree because otherwise she and her child are living out on the street. When the gas bill is about to be shut off and it costs 300 dollars to reconnect and you have -400 in your account and no family or friends who can afford to loan you money you DO NOT have the same options as someone who is stable financially.

Yes ultimately a person is responsible for themselves, but it is not nearly as easy as you make it out to be. You had a grandmothers house to live in. A lot of people do not even have that.

Good point. However even if all nations implemented an economic socialist policy, still would not help the indigenous peoples around the world. As for the slave trade, that is an example of an extreme human rights violation; the fact that Capitalism was involved is not indicative of Capitalism being wrong. Communism could have been just as responsible, except the slaves would have been communal property... that sounds so horrible.

The problem of some nations having less natural resources, and thus being a incapable of providing the type of opportunities as other countries, to me, is an example of another "rights violation", but one that is never really considered. They are imprisoned in their own country due to national borders and the countries unwilling to accept their entry.

Ideally, national borders wouldn't exist, and you would be free to go wherever the opportunities are. Again, not the fault of Capitalism, but not aided by it either (nor communism for that matter). That's a foreign policy issue, where the ones with have nothing to gain by assisting the ones without.



Yes it does, thank you. It is very disheartening to not see the desire for awareness and generosity that could make the world a better place, but my belief stands firm as to it being their right.

Your views are logical and consistent, only things we disagree on are what we value more.

Changing what someone values can only be an appeal to emotion... so unfortunately we can't do anything more to convince the other. Was a pleasurable derailment debate though

Children are not required to work, and the government -should be- subsidizing enough living necessities to prevent them needing to. If the parents still force their children to do this, that is child abuse in my opinion. School should come first. Scholarships/grants pay for college, so the money issue isn't there at that point if they do what they're supposed to in school.



To say I came from a poor or poverty condition growing up isn't exactly correct, but I wasn't middle class. My mom lived pay check to pay check, and could only afford to pay the bills due to child support. Other than that, she got no form of welfare or assistance.

I started working at 14 and have not gone more than 3 months my entire life without working. I now have a very well paying job, and am in the founding team of a few start-up companies with very great possibilities, one of which is being demoed in Europe and a company in Asia is interested in.

I didn't get much financial help from parents (unless you count being on parent's health insurance for longer than I should have been), and have worked hard to get this far.

Motivation/drive and social networking account for far more than how much money mommy/daddy have.



Yep, all true. Still doesn't prevent someone from being capable of success.



There is a recurring theme I've seen in people who don't come from money who aren't successful and desire to be. They make bad choices, or don't actually try hard enough. Usually a combination of both.

Unfortunately (mother included), most people seem content with just surviving and getting by. Sure they wish they could have success/money, but they are too afraid to take the risks necessary to achieve it.

I honestly despise anyone that doesn't have disabilities and blame anything but themselves (or parents/guardians/geographic restrictions) for being unable to improve their situation. May take them longer to get somewhere, but it is not impossible.

Yes it is true.

Who said anything about easy? Success in life is damn hard for the vast majority of us on the planet.

I'm not saying life is easy or fair. It damn sure isn't. Some are born into wealth and are taught things the lead to success and some are not. But the opportunity is still there. What you wrote about business pretty much proves that you haven't been taught anything about it. You have the idea you can get the capital...but you have to know how. You have to learn the game. People can and do transcend these hurdles ALL the time. Just because you can't imagine how doesn't mean others haven't.

Further more just about anyone can get loans to get into college in the USA and chose a path to better themselves. People don't 'HAVE' to keep a job to keep a roof over their head. They CAN chose to go to college and live in a dorm and get an education. Is it possible prior decisions make this unlikely or hard? Yep. You get pregnant in high school and the deck is stacked against you. You fuck up and get a criminal record same thing. But you know what? People transcend those issues all the time as well.

The human will is infinite.
To believe otherwise is to deny yourself your birth right.

So is capitalism perfectly fair? Nope.
Does it provide the best opportunity for people to rise up and achieve? I'd say based on sheer number of people that have immigrated to western nations and risen up the answer is an obvious YES.

The world needs help. I'm not saying it doesn't. It also needs some personal accountability for our actions. Yeah maybe Joe in the ghetto won't be a billionaire real estate investor. But nothing say's he has to work at the garage for the rest of his life either. He has the choice and power.

There's a pretty solid line between social darwinism and laissez-faire in that the latter excludes people trying to live at the expense of others by prohibiting initiation of force.

Aetherius Rimor:

Thank for you taking the time to read my posts and offer your personal story and viewpoint, I agree with you pretty much entirely.


Joe:

I never said moving out of the middle or upper class was impossible, just that it was extremely difficult; now that you have acknowledged that I too agree with you. From your earlier posts you made it seem like you thought material success was just a skip and a hop away.

Also any pointers on learning a bit more about business and capital acquisition? I'll agree that I don't know a whole lot about that.

Perhaps this is just the Oneness in me talking, but I am a firm believer in allowing your path to find you. Call it destiny if you would like. My suggestion would be to allow the universe to display the path for you to meet people you fit in with. Open yourself to the possibility of it happening, and keep your eyes and ears open for the signs - something will catch your attention. Follow it. You would be surprised what will find you if you let it happen

Yeah my intent wasn't really to suggest that it was a hop skip and a jump away. It is hard work, but not impossible.

With regards to business finance.
First it depends on the kind of business. I'm in the tech sector so I can talk a little more honestly about that as I've been associated with 2 startups now. However in general there are 2 basic rules that you need to keep in mind for any business that will require outside financing.

Rule #1. You need to convince investors that they are going to make money. The more lucrative for them the more readily they will give you money.

Rule #2. Convince them that you have the expertise to pull it off. Investors like to invest in people that have already been successful. For first time entrepreneurs this is often overcome by giving up a good bit of control. This is usually a very good thing. For instance in the biotech sector it is largely scientist that start the companies. But the board of directors are made up by a lot of people from the venture capital sector. These people will have the connections in the business world to actually bring your product to market. Scientists typically are great at keeping the nose to the grind stone and innovating, but lack the proper networking, social, and marketing skills to take an idea from the lab to market.

Now obviously starting a successful biotech company is out of reach for people that don't have expertise in the industry. The fastest way to get the expertise is to get the education and start working for startups.

Let's switch to something that is accessible to most people today.
Let's say you have a great idea for a software product that will bring buyers and sellers together to for some widget made in a foreign country. What you would have to do is built a protoype of the site and actually try to kick the business off yourself. You might have to sink a few thousand dollars and most likely a LOT of your personal time into the idea. Generally speaking the more revenue your business is currently generating the less ownership you will have to give up to draw outside funding.

It is however possible to do startups with little or none your own capital through angel investors. Angel investors are like venture capitals investors, but they take on much greater risk with a smaller portion of their investment assets. They also demand a much bigger return on investment. Which means in these scenarios you may just end up creating yourself a nice job. Nothing wrong with that. You pull this off once and your access to more lucrative financing in the future just went up 10 fold because you are now one of the 'successful' entrepreneurs.

There is a rule #3 as well. Never get overly protective over an idea in the early stages. Ideas are a dime a dozen and investors aren't interested in stealing your idea and starting the business. They would rather invest in someone else's hard work than do it themselves..that's why they are investors. So don't worry about sharing your idea with investors. In some instances you will actually need them to help you acquire IP protection...it actually costs a good bit of money to file for patents and such.

Beyond that the name of the game is networking. Get used to putting on a pair of slacks and going to meet and greats and rubbing shoulders with the big dogs. It can be a little mind numbing, but not as bad as you might imagine. Just don't be intimidated around wealthy people...remember you are trying to become one of them....or at least that is what you want them to think.

In all honestly it is sometimes easier to acquire financing for a tech startup that has the potential to generate hundreds of millions than it is to open say a coffee shop. In fact to open a coffee shop via bank loans requires one to actually have some asset's to back the loan...typically. Of course once you have started 1 successful coffee shop bankers now trust your ability and will loan money to the business (as opposed to you personally) to expand operations.

So the gist of it is generate a really great idea.
Convince yourself that you want to give this 110% of your time, effort, and energy.
Get a prototype working.
Get out to investor meet and greats and start meeting the right people. Don't worry about not knowing much. Openly admit your skills and look for investors that will provide complimentary services. Once you are capitalized it will become your life for a while. it's not for everyone. be prepared to work 80-90 hour weeks to make it work.

I did one software startup (molecular modelling company) that failed and it took a huge toll on me. BUT even though my company wasn't financially success it has helped me land in two very nice positions since that time. I have no regrets for sure.

Personally I now find it better to work at startups and get stock options as an early stage employee. This allows me to purchase those stock options and move one before the company has made it...or not. Of course your stock is only worth something if the company is sold are taken public. For me its' equivalent to not putting all my eggs in one basket. I also don't make nearly what the owners or investors make...not by a long shot.

Truth be told I may try another startup in the future, but it won't be for money reasons. I've solved that problem well enough to have a comfortable life. I've also realized that I don't want to trade the next 10 years of my life for a shot at a few million dollars (or even a few hundred million). If I do it again it will involve money, ethics, and something that I honestly believe helps push the world in a positive direction. I also may never do it again. It is not a decisions I will just jump into this time... Last time I was in my 20's...I had the energy and ambition...I also lacked the business finance sense. Wish someone had told me what I'm telling you to be perfectly honest!

And that's the potential beauty of being a great entrepreneur....you have access to huge sums of money to bring about real change in the world. I wish more entrepreneurs would realize that they are in the best position to actually effect the world positively. Great entrepreneurs don't have to know much about something like wind energy. They just have to know how to bring the right people together and get the business financed.

Well that was one gigantic ramble and I'm going to wrap it up know.

Good luck if you go this route.

This is so true, when I am 'flowing with the universe', even if it is in a direction I dont want to go, things seem to always work out for the best. While I dont know why, a lifetime of experience has shown me this is a real trend. Perhaps psychological methods are to blame, following your intuition and all that. Regardless it is something you will have to look back on your life to see but I am sure most if not all have experienced it.

Not just convince them, practically prove to them. Partnering with a company that would use or sell your product is one thing, they just need to be convinced. An investor however wants "guarantees'. They want seem to want their risk to come from impossible to predict disasters, rather than the risk it might not be successful. A fully working website or software/tech related product, if it's a relatively new idea, you're basically going to have to boot strap until you have the user base for solely online websites, or a revenue stream already making money for products. The point of the investor at this point is to take you from making a few hundred bucks/thousand bucks a month to hundreds of thousands/millions a year.

I'm a part of a group of really tech savvy people, including a lawyer and business advisor who are or have been on the board of angel investment firms, and despite one company having a finished working product that has been to several shows with lots of favorable results.... we still haven't been able to secure the investing we need.



Very true as well. We have people on our team that have been in corporate positions with stuff on their resume for saving millions of dollars to a certain international corporation's budget in one of their initiatives. Other people have equally long/impressive resumes (though that one item stands out). However none of us have had a successful start up before. Possibly a reason for the problem getting investing above, because the original founder/largest share holder of the companies doesn't want to give up any rights and insists on maintaining a majority voting share of the company.



Few thousand dollars seems about average for most of our boot straps, but we don't have a huge requirement for equipment. Personal time is the major pain. Most of the projects end up being thousands of hours of work (split up amongst several people) who all have full or part time jobs to pay the bills. If you're the founder of the company, you're also generally giving up shares to get people on board who have the expertise requirements that you don't. Need a software developer and don't know software development? Give up some shares, or pay between $30 to $100 an hour for development (quality generally increasing with $/hr and time to complete also tends to be inversely related).



I've seen an extreme case of "they're stealing my ideas" from one person before. They actually refused to use Google for any of their research out of fear Google would steal their ideas -_-;



Best way to network, is to find local "entrepreneur" clubs/events/meetups. My friend found our lawyer/business advisor/marketing director through these events. They are working for shares or trade for services, and are extremely valuable to us. If your idea isn't that great, you won't find a lawyer who will work for shares/trade for services, but if you genuinely have a great idea, people will see it at these things and want to assist you.



Start ups generally have a lot more flexibility in terms of payment for services (shares, stock options, profit sharing agreement, hourly wage, salary, or a mix of any of them), and in the hours needed to work. You have a team of people who have part/full time jobs to pay bills, they're far more willing to let you work on your schedule, since they to have their own obligations.



My -reason- for the desire to become a millionaire, is solely for the fact I can work on my own projects that I believe have merit/utility and could progress the world, and not have work on anyone elses. I'm just fine living in an efficiency apartment with a cheap (reliable) car, a computer, internet, books and a TV. I don't -need- anything more than that, but I can't accomplish my goal of pursuing projects I see lots of potential in without anyone else calling the shots until I'm in that financial state. I'll be playing this game for the profit motive until I have enough in the bank to live off the interest. Then I'm still going to be playing the game for the challenge/noble goals.



One of the start ups I'm involved in is a software/hardware interface application. The founder is an artist, who had an idea. He got the team together capable of implementing his vision, and it's now done, ready to be packaged and sold, and is actually making money. Just no investors biting yet. But yeah, he had no knowledge/expertise in software development or hardware, but he did have the vision and drive to get that vision materialized.



I see your ramble, and raise you one rambling response.

Every fiber of my being tells me that there is a purpose for this experience, and that purpose is revealed to us when we stop trying to change the experience and simply go with it. Nearly all of the most important moments/relationships/experiences of my life have come as a direct result of "following the white rabbit" when it presented itself to me. There is a force behind all of it, and it is beautiful

I can also relate, as (as it seems) nearly all of us can. In my case I think my atheism and my love for psychedelics and science are what distances me.

But there are two things we can work on: 1.) Deal with it or 2.) Try to make change however possible. I plan on choosing the latter, I hope you will too.

Make change by spreading and sharing knowledge, make connections wherever possible, and acknowledge, but put aside, the differences you see.

What a fantastic thread. I too (didn't) fit in in college - though I finished my undergrad and made the most of it - and left graduate school as I realized what I was learning was mostly irrelevant to my life's goals. This thread is to me a perfect example of the "Oneness" of the universe working its way through the phenomenal world - seeing my own thoughts and interests and experiences reflected in the lives and times of Nexians spread around the planet...

On the subject of capitalism - which as far as I can see is a "hands-off" approach to the economy, where individuals are allowed to own property, start for-profit businesses, and where the government's role in the economy is to provide a legal structure/framework/paradigm in which markets can operate. A general prohibition on fraud/theft, for example, is necessary for a functioning economy, and only a governmental structure (police) can do this. If you find this interesting I recommend wholeheartedly Robert Nozick's 1974 work "Anarchy, State, Utopia", it's frigging brilliant. He shows that in a purely anarchic state, without an overarching governmental structure, individuals, acting in their own interest, would form a cooperative security structure that would effectively become a state apparatus. On the other hand, "Utopian" governments which aim to create the ideal society inevitably fail and devolve into something quite the opposite of what was intended. So, he concludes, the best sort of government - one that is necessary for a functioning society - is a "liberal" government that provides a structure in which economics/markets can operate, but don't unnecessarily intervene in that economy to try to produce a "socially just" state, since this sort of intervention inevitably leads to consequences that weren't intended. I may be misrepresenting what the master says (and certainly don't write with such eloquence) so I recommend the book itself...

Here's a perfect example of why a decentralized approach to the economy works better than the other possibility, a top-down, planned/redistributive economy, from Red China:
http://www.economicpolic...-transformed-china.html

On the subject of start-ups - I recommend the essays of LISP programmer, start-up founder, and essayist Paul Graham. Here's his advice to high school students, about treating high school like a day job that pays the bills, and devoting outside time to finding one's "real job", looking for "good problems" to solve, etc. There's a wealth of information linked elsewhere on his site, which I think people posting above would savour: http://www.paulgraham.com/hs.html