I posted this in the Do You Eat Meat thread but only got one reply in 7+ pages, so here we go:

Based on your experience, if you were to switch to a primarily vegetarian diet, would the occasional eating of meat have a negative effect physically, mentally, or spiritually? IOW, make you sick (physical), affect cognitive abilities (mental), or decrease one's feeling of spiritual connection or meditation ability (spiritual)?

I believe in moderation in all things, but I don't want to occasional treat of eating a cheese burger to unbalance my system and undo all the work I put in to controlling my diet.

Fatburger has just the burger for you!

I've been a vegetarian for over a year, and tbh it did have to do with my psychedelic undertakings.

I came to a certain point where I was faced with a paradox I couldn't get around: what makes one animal's life greater than another? What I mean by this is I have two dogs that are like my children. I also know that in certain parts of the world dogs are eaten as callously as we'd eat a pig or a cow. Likewise, in other parts of the world, cows are deified and groups of people would be agast at eating one. What's the difference? Cultural perception and I couldn't find an answer that was compelling enough to keep me from feeling hypocritical every time I picked up a burger, so I live by the rule that 'if it was once alive, it's not for me'.

As far as an adverse reaction, I haven't ate meat since I gave it up however there are times when I can be around things like sloppy joes or pulled bbq pork and have to leave the room as the stench is so overwhelming it makes me nauseous. Peculiar since I liked both things back when I was a meat eater, but it smells so much like death to me now I have to withdraw from it. Also pig roasts at open houses and stuff (I live out in the country) are absolutely horrible for me. It takes a force of will to be at an event where the carcass of a pig is cooked and passed out for all to sink their teeth into (clenching my gut just thinking about this last summer's open house season...). Basically, I don't like death of any kind and don't feel that any creature should have to die so I might continue to live.

Personal choice though, I don't push my vegetarian 'beliefs' on anyone else and I NEVER complain about it when I'm around meat eaters (don't want to alienate anyone).

I admire your journey and I'm actually taking similar steps myself, but you'll have to forgive me because I can't help but play the devil's advocate here: doesn't your rule of "if it was once alive, it's not for me" include plants? Weren't they once alive?

I think this is a point worth making, especially with applebaum's post in the meat thread.
We as animals somehow equate life as 'life comparable to ours' which completely circumvents the fact that all food was at some point alive. It's all in the balance of life and death; it is only our narrow-minded conception of what life is that allows us to deem one thing alive and the other not.

SpartanII, I was extremely hesitant to eat meat again for the reasons you outlined. Would my treasured health and sensitivity to psychedelics be influenced by consuming animal flesh? In the end, listening to my body was well rewarded. Meat in moderation was personally a very good thing for me, and none of the side effects I feared came about. Just stay away from feed lots and all of the nasties that come with Big Ag raised livestock.

I find eating meat occasionally to be very beneficial, but by "meat" in this context I mostly mean fish... red meat tends to upset my digestion a bit, but eating some bit of animal every few weeks really makes being 'mostly vegetarian' more feasible for me. It also becomes special, more ritual when you approach it as a rare treat rather than a mundane sort of thing.

I have to be absolutely honest when I say I recognize that there is an inherent contradiction in my diet, but there is this intuitive feeling that plants and animal life are not equivalent. This is not to say that plants don't have conciousness, I truly believe that they do, however I guess here we could use the world 'pain' to describe where the distinction lies.

I dunno, its difficult to explain really and there is no logical rationale that is coherent enough to satisfy a hardliner on this issue. It's just my path, as it's been revealed to me what I should/should not consume. I just get the feeling that certain plants (this will seem silly) WANT to be eaten... sort of like that's part of their reason for being. After all, most plants we eat are seasonal so in comparison with an edible plants life and the life of an animal, the plant will waste away quickly if you don't consume it while it's ripe. On the other hand, very few animals have such a short life expectancy.

I'll throw magic mushrooms in here as a VERY good example of what I mean by a plant that wants to be eaten. My mushrooms and I have a very loving relationship, totally symbiotic. The spores rely on me to create for them a suitable environment for growth, food stuffs, and the like. As they grow, they reach the stage of adulthood where the caps open and they drop new spores, signifying their life cycles are coming to an end. I take the spores, imprint them, and prepare the next batch (the offspring of my 'child', thus continuing the cycle that would normally be produced in nature. The mushroom, it's life cycle now complete, begins to waste away and decay, but before it does this I pluck them, dry them, and then consume them as my spiritual practice. This is where the mushroom gives back to me all of the love that I gave to it throughout it's life, and we experience a union that transcends words.

I also garden, and I dunno, to me I can TASTE love in my home grown stuff. You're all familiar with how home grown stuff just tastes better than the stuff you can get in the store, I sort of lean towards the fact that it's because there is a loving exchange between you and the plant. You tend your garden, and your garden tends for your needs. This is symbiosis and is my perferred method of living on this Earth. On the contrary competition, survival of the fittest where I take whatever I need regardless of whether if feels pain of if I give anything back to the species is an outdated modality imo. It's what's gotten us into such trouble in our current era, this idea of take, take, take give nothing back.


I also don't have any sort of problem when this mentality of symbiosis is carried into the realm of animals even. A local farmer who raises his cattle himself and develops a bond of love with his animals is, imo, doing the same thing as the gardener. It's a matter of valuing life. Going to McDonald's and ordering a burger and fries is just me being selfish imo. I don't deserve that animal's life since I gave that animal nothing DURING it's life, you dig?


Again, this is my own personal philosophy I don't mean to place this onto anyone else, it just works for me and helps me sleep at night

Yes. I think it was Joedirt that mentioned that after a while off of meat yoou loose some of the enzymes for digesting meat or something and you feel sick when you eat it. I dunno though I just know that for me when I was just basically vegetarian and had things like dairy and sometimes caved and had meat or fish I always felt worse than when I did not have any.

Cant really say now though as I have not had meat or dairy or eggs even once in close to 2 years.

Just for the record that is my speculation. I haven't read any scientific papers on this or anything...if not that then something...because every vegetarian I know say's the same thing. They just can't process red meat as well any more.

Also Fish is not problem at all for me, and turkey is sufferable. Beef...I wouldn't even consider a burger at this point...in fact to be honest I simple don't even find a burger appealing. WOW. I can't believe I just said that. I used to pride myself on grilled burgers man.


BTW If you are unsure about it just drop down to having meat 1-2 meals a week at first. See how the shoe fits you. Even that is far better in terms of animals suffered. You may find that being a vegetarian is only hard in concept...in practice it's actually not bad at all. Especially if you have an interest in cooking and learning new recipes.

Most studies I have read have shown that occasional meat eaters are essentially just as healthy as vegetarians.

Peace.

I think the question of whether the occasional meat encounter is difficult highly depends on the individual person's constitution and how sensitive they are. I ate a piece of beef two weeks ago because I was travelling in a foreign country and it was being prepared in a traditional way, and I had no adverse reaction to it, even though it was the first red meat I'd eaten in 5 years.

Out of curiosity was it grass fed? You said traditional so I'll asume no.

You are right though it's all about each individuals constitution.

Peace

Most fruits and vegetables can be harvested without killing the plant itself, which I take into account.

I had a friend that has been vegan for over 25 years tell me the same thing about the enzymes.

I have no valid sources and it's very possibly untrue, but what she told me is if you stop eating meat, eventually your body stops producing the enzymes to digest it and it will make you sick if you start eating it again because your body is no longer used to it. She said that even smelling meat cooking causes your body to start producing those enzymes again and that is why it tends to make long time veggies nauseous when they smell meat cooking.

Again, no idea how valid that is, but that's what I've been told.

Honestly after being veggie/vegan for a while things like meat and dairy become very unappealing and you lose all desire to put these things into your body.

yea i used to eat absolute garbage all day long until a few years ago.. i still have an occasional craving when i visit family for a few weeks, since i'm around all of that stuff 24/7 those weeks..and i literally used to be one of the most unhealthy eaters there was i'd wager. But it occurs less and less now and only when i'm really hungry..Dairy became extremely unappealing forever after just doing the research into it and thinking about it for a bit. I quit it on the spot and i used to drink milk everyday, multiple times a day. It was easy to stop that. Some other stuff was harder

As far as meat goes, when i consumed some of it unknowingly in a spinach pasta thing my aunt made a few weeks ago (they said it had no meat ) i didn't notice any ill affects that i remember besides it not uplifting me like my food does now and making me feel dense and a bit sluggish. Another time though 6 months before that i had some and it gave me a headache and stomache ache.. And i literally have one of the toughest stomachs out of anyone i know

Its fascinating how programmable your tastes are though..If people got off all the junk food for long enough i doubt they would even find it appetizing after enough time with real food. When i have tried some of that junk food again it tasted really unappealing, dead, and left me with low energy and feeling like my body was much lower in vibrancy than if I'd eaten a healthy living meal. On the other hand, if i eat what i normally eat now i actually get something like a body and mind high..quite the opposite affect

In my experience this is mostly psychological. I too have no studies , only personal experience. I maintained a vegetarian diet for about ten years and can confirm even the smell of meat cooking made me nauseous. Simply walking into a kitchen with that smell or having it too close caused serious heaving.

During this time my health deteriorated because I could not maintain proper nutrition from my vegetarian diet. I spent about a year training myself to eat meat again and I still have issue with it. Even the taste of chicken (whatever that taste is) makes me ill. I can't get the thought of some cute animal out of my head while eating it. It's really not pleasant.

Someday I'd like to return to a vegetarian diet. Or, at least, a mostly vegetarian diet. I see no moral issue with consuming meat offered out of generosity. In fact, I find it a bit off when someone refuses a warm meal because they're vegetarian.

"In fact, I find it a bit off when someone refuses a warm meal because they're vegetarian."

That is something I find weird because I have had people respond that way to me..and personally I find it rude and inconciderate. I was sick for a long time and if it comes down to someones strange emotional reaction to me not wanting to eat the meat they cook becasue of a health issue, and my own health I will choose my own health every single time and never will I feel guilty for that.

I would not expect an ex alcoholic to take a drink if I offered them one, nor would I expect someone with a bananna allergy to take the banana I offer them because it would be rude to do so.

No offence but I find this to be just really really weird behaviour.

alpha what were you eating mostly when you got sick while vegetarian? I know a lot of unhealthy vegetarians and they seem to eat a ton of wheats and grains..and cook what vegetables they do eat- killing off a lot of the nutrients. And many eat very little fruit. So i'm just curious to see what your diet was like

It took me a while to get mine down and it was rough at first but now i feel amazing. I've met a lot of unhealthy looking vegetarians, and have a few friends that think just because they don't eat meat they will be a lot healthier. but then they consume a ton of other stuff that really isn't that healthy of a substitute at all. I'm not saying you ate unhealthily or that this was the cause of your ill health, more just explaining why i ask and how i find this strange trend in regards to diet really common among vegetarians

I have been a vegetarian for just over 3 months now, i chose not to eat fish or any kind of sea food either.
I became a vegetarian mainly for moral reasons also with intentions of enhancing my spiritual power.
Since becoming vegetarian, the main physical differences i have noticed within myself are my fitness and energy levels, they have increased substantially to my surprise. my strength has improved and my bmi is perfect, i have maybe lost a small amount of weight also.
Mentally i feel much more sharp and much more aware, but everything does seem more dream like if that makes sense.

The spiritual changes have blown me away with surprise, sometimes overwhelming and occasionally even fear of change. I am extremley sensitive to my inner energy to the extent that i can feel what part of the brain im using at any moment, i can feel the shape and size of all my organs and would be able to sense if anything is wrong much easier than before, i also feel as if i am imune from illness or disease, although i am probably not.
The biggest change of all is my vision, i can see neon looking laser light in/around/on every solid object. When its dark it illuminates even brighter and has been giving me difficulty sleeping in a "good" routine. At night time i sometimes see neon looking grids of light floating in the air, the grids look as though they have a continuous "s" looking shape and are normally purple. Sometimes i see shapes or shadows in the corner of my eyes which sometimes gives me a little fear.
Something i find extraordinary is looking into the palm of my hand with extreme focus i can see images coming through but can never make them out. If the light is overcast i can see symbols coming through my arms, they seem as though there floating a millimeter above the skin and they look as though there illuminated green light but again hard to make out the symbols when using the focus needed to see the images, the amazing thing is, i can feel the symbols coming through my skin as energy.

I have also minimized my consumption of alcohol since becoming vegetarian which could also have something to do my increased visuals and energy.

A health issue is one thing; however, I'm mostly talking about the trendy city kids. Also my mom - who's now in kidney failure from what I believe to be poor diet from her vegetarian choices. She replaced meat with processed "vegetarian" crap and I can't get her to stop. Instead, I watch her wither away.


Meat isn't generally an addiction like alcohol and most vegetarians aren't allergic to meat, so your counter-examples aren't really equivalent - but I get your point and it's well-taken. The subject is just a bit personal for me as stated above.



It was horrible - with zero nutrients. I'd like to try again, but do it right this time. I still remember that Chinese medicine dr who practically slapped me for not eating all kinds of beans. But I hate beans!

I get it that people generally tend to go vegetarian while continuing to know little to nothing about nutrition and therefore eat the worst vegetarian diet that definatily does not meet nutritional requirements. It is like a typical western diet. There is still junk vegetarian and vegan foods.

However there is no evidence to support the idea that a balanced vegetarian or vegan diet cannot meat all nutritional needs. It seems to be more the opposite..it is just that so many people go vegetarian as a trendy thing and eat vegetarian pizza from pizza hut, fries or fried tofu etc. I was vegeatarian once for about a year 6 years ago until I ate meat again for a few years and I ate such a crap diet for some reason thinking becasue I ate no meat I was somehow going to be healthy living on bread, peanut butter, white rice and greasy indian and chinese food etc. To succeed as a vegan or vegetarian requires a sufficient level of knowledge put into practice to be successful otherwise you will just end up tired and undercarbed with a mineal deficiency.

Going back from a vegetarian diet to a meat eating diet though did nothing for me..I got worse and worse until I went raw vegan. I have had things go away that had been problems since I was 5 years old like chronic ear infections so bad I had to wear ear plugs every time I went in water. I had ear infections 4 or 5 times a year until I went raw vegan nearly 14 months ago. Never had one since.