How do you know that endogenous DMT and other tryptamines is not one of the mechanisms behind the psycho-activity of higher doses of harmala alkaloids? These substances turn into very powerfull psychedelic´s in higher doses. Some harmala alk´s are NMDA-antagonists as well, but that doesn´t realy explain the wide range of psycho-active effects of them.

Take more exogenous DMT, that'll get things up and runnin. it may not be natural DMT levels rising but a certain "neural rewiring" could be taking place that facilitates the brains sensitivity to unusual sensastions. ( anyone can conjure up an altered state with some spare time and a calm dark spot )

This subject always has the "mystic pseudo scientists" excited. However until solid science has emparted it's views backed by empirical evidence, then there's no reason to suppose that DMT is produced in the brain, or that Descartes theories hold any water. ( even Strassman abandoned the DMT-pineal link)

On a parting note, it has been proven that certain antidepressants have been responsible for neurogenesis, if used for a sustained period. One such is the serotonin reuptake enhancer Tianeptine.( which by the way in high doses, can have noticeable DMT like effects, I tried that out.) Selegeline is another that has neuroprotective properties. ( via MAO suppression).

DMT aside, if you wanted to mess around with the pineals main function of melatonin production. One could try the new AD from Servier, Agolomelatine ( Valdoxan). I have it, but am too chicken shit to try it with DMT ( a little inner voice says don't do it)

To be fair, the DMT-pineal thing is a good conversation piece, but not worth fighting over.

peace

There's always Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation for possible endogenous DMT stimulation. Although there's no evidence for DMT stimulation, some of the experiences people report are very similar to DMT trips.

http://www.shaktitechnology.com/shiva/index.htm

Anyone brave enough to order one should definitely post their experiences.

A couple reports: (from the website)

"... I used the “Shiva Neural Stimulation system” for the first time the other day and again I was surprised by the outcome. My intention was to heighten even further my intuition, and 30 minutes after my session I experienced “Samadhi” (intense God realization) Whoa!"

"Had a very distinct "visit" (including a clear visual) from a sort of "being" or intelligence two days after my first (Shiva Neural Stimulation, (using the Persinger session). I've been doing a lot of work attempting to contact specific "entities"... Anyway, I was not expecting anything like this to happen after just one session - especially not so dramatically - and I chalked it up to some sort of ... effect caused by my many attempts to do this activating (with little to no success ) in the past. The Persinger session was probably just the jump-start that was needed to push the whole process over-the-edge and on the road to my desired ends."

Wow that Shiva Neural Stimulation thing is a trip. Wish there were places that carried them / let you sample them or something. Science and spirituality are blurring more into each other. I'd certainly strap that thing on, but I'd be wary of it working too well and never taking it off hahaha, I'm just starting to get ahold over my impulses towards instant gratification. Certainly won't be spending my limited money on one any time soon.

while I certainly don't subscribe to the pineal gland theory, it's apparent where the methylating enzymes are abundant (in proximity of sigma-1 receptors in the lungs), from recent research. The likelihood of pinoline production during waking states may explain some of the visionary states so often described. With that in mind, there is a threshold concentration, in the low micromolar range, in which DMT exerts noticeable visual anomalies.
it is quite possible that levels may temporarily reach that, especially in the presence of endogenous MAOIs.

but with respect to dreaming...I've also had dreams which were "different" experiences of DMT, as well as PCP, cocaine, LSD, etc..
does that mean my brain produces those chemicals while I'm asleep? obviously not.

One has successfully induced a hyperspace experience sans DMT. Other psychotropics were involved in the run-up but the entire week prior to the experience no psychotropics were ingested.

https://www.dmt-nexus.me...&m=308701#post308701

If anyone can deduce the pharmacology of this that would be sweet. AFAIK the pineal gland does secrete 6-MeO-THBC, an endogenous MAOI which potentially could play a part in this.

Omega-3 fish oil, piracetam, niacin and multi-vitamin/mineral complexes were also involved. Subjectively, the prime contributing factor is reported to be the holotropic breathwork, syrian rue intake taking second place.

This experience was hyperspace without a doubt. All the characteristics of DMT intake were present except for one thing... No DMT was actually ingested!

One would imagine that hyperspace would be most accessible via holotropic breathing. It is noted that holotropic breathing bears a striking resemblance to low dose DMT in this subject.

If I’m not mistaken, natural levels of DMT and related tryptamines in the human body are extremely low – in the microgram range.

So even if you change your diet, meditate, starve yourself, or do whatever else you do in an effort to boost endogenous DMT, and assuming any of it actually works, you’d be increasing levels by a few micrograms. Not enough to produce any effects.

micrograms is incomplete; biochemically, activity is defined in terms of concentration... mass per unit volume (mg/mL), or more conventionally, moles per liter (i.e. nM, uM, mM, etc.). Typical plasma concentrations are in the low nM range, not enough to get psychedelic effects, especially since it gets metabolized rapidly.

The debate about where it's produced is really of little interest to me. While the pineal and pituitary glands or of interest from my perspective due to their location in the brain, it seems like the debate as to where it is created or stored isn't so significant.. but then again I'm not a scientist so maybe it would be of dire importance if one is talking about consciously activating endogenous dmt.

However the recent mention of it's extremely low volume within the human body causes me to ponder it's actual role in the human body. It seems that with it's low concentration, that it wouldn't be solely responsible for dream visions or trances, it's just a correlation I've been contemplating. I don't think anyone could say tryptamines are solely responsible, except that some are more "conductive" neuro-transmitters than others? If that makes any sense.

Yes, I’m aware of the concept of concentrations. But the point I was making is that the total amount of naturally occurring DMT in a person of average weight is in the microgram range – not enough to have a psychoactive effect.

Maybe chemicals are but one of many ways to "open" or "activate" the part of us that can experience hyperspace, or other altered states for that matter. :idea:

We are not talking about "normal" concentrations... or normal people for that matter. Obviously, normal people with micrograms of DMT in their systems have no hyperspatial effects whatsoever.

What we are talking about is "Ways to naturally control the release of our own DMT."

Considering that many people have reported DMT like experiences without consuming any drugs, it is worth considering that it may be possible for some people to activate endogenous tryptamines and beta-carbolines. We don't know the mechanism per se. We don't know which endogenous chemicals (or cocktails of chemicals) might be involved. What we have is a plethora of subjective anecdotal reports stretching back over millenia that indicate that something is going on.

Instead of getting hung up on proving where it is actually produced, I would think people would be more interested in the methods that have proven successful at giving drug-less DMT-esque experiences. The tired refrain of "...until solid science has emparted it's views backed by empirical evidence, then there's no reason to suppose that DMT is produced in the brain." is as wrong as it is pointless. There is reason to suppose that DMT or other similar indoles REACH the brain somehow and produce effects that have been widely reported.

For people like myself who have repeatedly experienced these effects... I have every reason to suppose in these directions. When a scientist verifies something, it doesn't magically become true all of a sudden. It was true before the evidence came in.

Methyltransferase was present in the pineal gland before the team of scientists who wrote the paper did their experiments. And, it didn't matter how many of you doubted or poo poo'd the concept. The fact is, that you were all wrong. I hate to have to say it... but I told you so. Now we know that all the ingredients for DMT production ARE, IN FACT, available to the pineal gland.

Just because your pineal gland isn't throbbing and pumping out something DMT like... doesn't mean that mine isn't.

first of all, it's not as simple as you think it is.
that abstract didn't show the enzyme bound to the DNA which is responsible for coding its
production, so you're the one that's still wrong (why get excited on one study anyway? results need to be reproduced by other researchers for a theory to be considered plausible ). secondly, some amphipathic molecules are readily ferried into the brain by transporter proteins, that doesn't mean those molecules are produced there. the pineal gland is known to produce products way upstream of simple tryptamine production, and the methyltransferase that's widely known to be produced there is 5-HIOMT. Science, with assays like Western Blot analysis, provide a clearer picture than blind speculation.


I can believe all I want that I can levitate, doesn't mean I'll actually achieve it; and yea,
we can spin in circles, hold out breath and whatnot, and claim the pineal gland is producing DMT, but of course that's just not the case. You should get over the fact that endogenous concentrations of DMT are just so low that you likely get effects from other things like catecholamines and their metabolites, rather than DMT.

sure..you know what that chemicals it is in REM sleep?
*whispers* it's acetylcholine, the same one responsible for memory, and glycine. :idea:

there's no shortage of pseudoscientific metaphysical nonsense on the net, and if I had a nickel...

I could retire early.

You do realise this is like saying - "you know what object is in a car when it's rolling? The tires, the same one responsible for keeping it on the ground"?

The human body produces a seamless unified awareness through the sum total of all chemical interactions. What's ACh going to do without GABA, glutamate, ions, etc? What you're essentially saying is "this lock opens the door" - don't forget the door itself and the palace it opens.

It's hilarious how modern medicine takes this approach - you're depressed THEREFORE IT IS INDISPUTABLY SEROTONIN. And suddenly, SSRI induced suicidality, neuroleptic induced dyskinesia, pharmaceuticals being one of the top 10 killers in the USA. Looks like that didn't work out too well.


This reminds me of the argument surrounding concept neurons. OK, so concept neurons may/may not exist in the way they are hypothesised... BUT you have entire neural networks that trigger those neurons. Likewise, DMT is only a key to a locked palace. Perhaps more of a skeleton key than anything. If we trigger the activation of those neural networks that are involved in hyperspace there is no question that you can DMT without DMT. All that remains is how.

The fallacy here is assuming that similar states have similar causes: “I experience a state similar to a DMT-induced trip, therefore the experience is due to endogenous DMT.”

Why make such an assumption?

Always on your high horse aren't ya?

It was pretty clear I was just speculating and wasn't making any "pseudoscientific" claims.

I know acetylcholine is involved with dreaming (I take galantamine to stimulate lucid dreams), it doesn't prove that acetylcholine explains dreaming, only that it's part of the process. For all we know dreams and altered states could originate in another dimension, and chemicals may only be a key that turns the lock that opens the door to these dimensions. Yes, I am speculating, but theories have to start somewhere.

Shall we separate "DMT" and "hyperspace" then?

We know that if we take "DMT" this leads to a state called "hyperspace".

Given that DMT is the only agent known to bring one to hyperspace, this could mean amongst other possibilities -

* That hyperspace is simply the neural signature of DMT, in the same way all psychedelics induce a particular characteristic space of experience
* That we simply haven't found other substances capable of doing this but they do exist - hyperspace is independent of DMT and exists as a rigorously definable set of neural firing patterns

What the endogenous DMT theory does is put two and two apples together to make four. But who knows, maybe we're ignoring the massive stack of apples that lies just out of sight. Regardless, "similar" is one thing but when you have the exact experience of hyperspace it is a different story. That pushes things more in the endogenous DMT direction.

It may be that DMT does not necessarily need to be in the same high concentrations as when we smoke it to have such a pronounced effect. For example if there were a means to induce extreme receptor sensitivity then the potency of DMT could be pushed down to the micro, nano, hell, picogram ranges. In a few of my experiences with high dose oral DMT I observed that DMT does seem to modulate sensory perception in some way or other: I assumed full control of reality and it became a lucid dream and I could paint my imagination directly into reality.

We know very little about trace-amine receptors AFAIK. Without mapping out their actions, how can any side come to a conclusion? Observations & judgements are to be made after you have all the empirical evidence, not before. Yes, that applies to both sides.

agreed.

and before the metaphysical skunks jump on my back, allow me to agree that there is still
so much we don't know about the brain; so while the evidence may not be present today given our current faculties, that's not to say it won't be present tomorrow.
still, I wouldn't hold my breath on the pineal gland theory, that still seems like wishful thinking for the most part. maybe the virgin mary will appear on a Western Blot of pineal extract, declaring dmt to be sacriligious.

I'm kidding.

Calling names now?

I happen to like skunks... but I don't think you mean this as a term of endearment.

Hehehehe.

How do you know what I think? From this post I wonder if you actually read my post at all. Go back up and read what I wrote.

I said that the building blocks are available to the pineal. If you are going to respond to me, please try not to misquote me or put words into my mouth.

How is this different from what you are saying?

I also said that "...it is worth considering that it may be possible for some people to activate endogenous tryptamines and beta-carbolines. We don't know the mechanism per se. We don't know which endogenous chemicals (or cocktails of chemicals) might be involved." This is rather clear, and is not the same as saying that endogenous DMT produced in the pineal gland is responsible, as you and others here have suggested I am saying.


You seem rather too sharp to resort to these reductio ad absurdem sarcasms. What does any of this have to do with what I have said? Red herring, anyone?

It could be catecholamines... it could be pinoline... it could be some other alkaloids... it could be DMT... it could be a synergistic combination. And, to reiterate... the endogenous concentrations might not be uniform from test subjects to yogic practitioners in the midst of mystical states.

Condescension is not becoming of the atmosphere here, and while I have a lot of respect for your knowledge of chemistry, it is clear that neither you, nor anyone in this field of research actually know what is going on here. Your conjectures are not superior to anyone else's... especially in the face of actual subjective experiences.

You have said on the Nexus that the idea that DMT can be produced in the pineal is debunked by the lack of methyltransferase present there. When I mentioned on those threads that it could be transported there, I was met with ridicule. Now that we know that it does in fact reach the pineal (by some mechanism), you trumpet the very thing I said before as if it was an argument against what I am saying.

Hmmmm....