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bufoman
#61 Posted : 1/4/2009 3:38:35 AM

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I agree and these need to be looked into although I think the theo is pretty important at normal dosage levels of cocao. However it is not even confirmed if cacao potentiates freebased DMT. This will have to be looked at preliminarily. The effects of oral DMT + MAOI + Cocoa (Theo) could also use more confirmation. The MAOI factor however could alter the effects of PEA in chocolate as well as some of the endocannbinoid like compounds also the presence of choline could have an effect. Thus the MAOI in the oral combo is likely an important factor in any potentiation.
 

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bufoman
#62 Posted : 1/4/2009 4:01:54 PM

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SWIM had intense vivid dreams as well as lucid dreams last night and another night after taking 100mg theobromine. These dreams were significantly greater than on normal nights. Theobromine may act as a dream potentiator although this is early to conclude anything this should be looked into. Interestingly both doses were taken at least 5 hours before bed.
 
bufoman
#63 Posted : 1/4/2009 5:32:40 PM

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With cacao it is hard to say as there are other active compounds also the prescense of the MAOI would likely alter the effects. SWIM gets enhanced dreams during the night when taking an MAOI during the day but hasn't tried taking directly before bed. As soon as just taking theobromine I would not be able to sleep so it is possible that the theo in the cacao is responsible for this effect in you. As you said it may make one more alert and thus recall dreams and more likely to have a lucid dream, but SWIM definitetly slept well. We really need to try with pure compounds as plants while useful have a cocktail of alkaloids present that can influence the effects. Even if the alkaloids themselves are not active they may interact through enzyme inhibition... to alter the effects of the active compound. It is the combo that is active. Also everyone is different, it could also be something I ate with the combo of theo it is hard to say. Just throwing it out there so more people can try it and see if there is any pattern here.
 
Garulfo
#64 Posted : 1/4/2009 7:05:33 PM

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Quote:
Theobromine may act as a dream potentiator although this is early to conclude anything this should be looked into. Interestingly both doses were taken at least 5 hours before bed.


This is interresting. I guess that many stimulants may increase lucid/vivid dreams, althought the difficulty might be to sleep. I experimented with nicotin patches a while ago (beeing a non smoker Pleased) and it is a great LD potentiator but sleeping is not easy.

I wonder about what could be the effect of cafeine+DMT or nicotine+DMT...
 
Jorkest
#65 Posted : 1/4/2009 8:05:21 PM

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SWIM will try this Theobromine effect with sleeping

on new years..SWIM took 2 hits of acid and smoked dmt and bufotenine later on in the night..AWESOME VISUALS BY THE WAY...

anyway..in the morning SWIM made some hot chocolate(he was still awake) and added 200mg of theobromine to the mix...this created a nice warm feeling and also increased his visuals almost up to breakthrough levels...with eyes closed he was in a dmt like space..and this lasted for the rest of the day...
it's a sound
 
bufoman
#66 Posted : 1/4/2009 8:12:09 PM

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Nicotine is active in altering dreams because acetylcholine is involved in dreaming (REM Sleep). Thus nicotine acts as a nicotinic receptor agonist and has effects on dreams, it is not a result of its stimulant activity. Also many stimulants like amphetamine decrease REM sleep and deep sleep stages. LSD in a low dose increases REM frequency and REM duration. Theobromine if it does do so should be interesting as caffeine is not known to have these effect and thus something in the pharmacology must be different to allow such effect to occur.
 
bufoman
#67 Posted : 1/4/2009 8:16:06 PM

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The fact that it lasted the rest of the day is interesting. Are you sure it was LSD and not DOI or DOM as these compounds have a significantly longer half life and are active longer than LSD?
I am wondering if other compounds in the chocolate are responsible or influence this enhancement as for SWIM visuals were significantly reduced, and not as colorful as usual.
Possibly try taking just the theo before freebase DMT to see what occurs.
 
polytrip
#68 Posted : 1/4/2009 8:52:06 PM
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I once smoked a free-base cocoa extract while i was on acid. For a few seconds there where very noticeable effects, but they didn't last longer then half a minute. I don't recommend others doing it, since it might be extremely bad for your lungs.
Theobromine doesn't make the absorbtion of DMT go quicker. It purely amplifies some signals in the brain, so the THH-DMT-theobromine combo must just have amplified the DMT immediately, while the THH supressed some of the activities that would have normally been amplified as well. So without the THH, the total of all amplified brain activity would have lead to a decrease of DMT effects.
The fact that it worked so fast has nothing to do with the theobromine but with the DMT itself.
DMT can work this fast, with no additives at all, except for the MAOI's.
DMT has an unpredictive trait. No matter how experienced you are, it can always surprise you and certainly if you try new combo's.
 
bufoman
#69 Posted : 1/4/2009 10:14:08 PM

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This could have been a result of a lack of oxygen or the mind state you were in (setting) especialy since it was so short acting. Additionaly many compounds would have been present in this extract. Methylxanthines can enhance the absorption of other drugs, I do not know the effect specificaly on DMT but this certainly is a possibility. I agree that DMT is absolutly unpredictable.
Theobromine would enhance the intensity and duration of any cAMP mediated effects. While THH acts as a SSRI thus enhancing the duration of DMT (by preventing MAO metabolism) while altering the effects via a number of possibilities. What gives you the impression that the amplified brain activity decrease DMT effects? I agree that Theo does decrease the visual effects of freebased DMT however the reason for this is unknown. Additionaly more people need to try this combo to replicate the study.
 
polytrip
#70 Posted : 1/5/2009 11:46:02 AM
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Well, there is no preference in theobromine for cAMP effects that occur within the range of the DMT mind state. The brain activity that would normally be supressed by DMT would also be amplified by how theobromine intermediates in cAMP activity. This means that part of the DMT effects would be amplified and another part of it would be reduced. At least, that's my speculation.
I think THH is something that will make the balance tip to the other side, depending on the dosage. This would have to do with the increased amounts of DMT in the blood and the increased amounts in the brain itself as well.
On this forum there where speculations on wether the visual effects of DMT would be caused by it's serotonergic effects or it's effects on other transmitters. One argument here is that there are other tryptamines such as 5-MeO-DMT that affect the serotonergic system like DMT, but that lack visual activity.
At the same time 69ron once compared 5-MeO-DMT, DMT and bufotenin and it became clear that the most visual compound hast the longest lasting effect while the least visual compound has the shortest lasting effect. It's also a fact that 5-MeO-DMT becomes more visual when it's taken in combination with MAOI's and it becomes longer lasting.
I think that how long a molecule is active within the brain itself, may have something to do with this. This is ofcourse a pure speculation, but i think that 5-MeO-DMT has a shorter lasting effect on each receptor, that once it activated a receptor, it's removed by the brains mechanisms quickly. So if you block this mechanisms within the brain, not just the stomach, it will make any compound more visual.
 
polytrip
#71 Posted : 1/5/2009 2:46:57 PM
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It does.
 
polytrip
#72 Posted : 1/5/2009 5:27:40 PM
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It's a long list and it is a personal thing if you like or don't like an additive.
For instance, i would not add tobacco to my brews (quitted smoking years ago) but i know that it does seriously affect the trip.
All cafeïne like compounds that reduce the enzymes that break down cAMP transmitters and all herbs containing them have some effect; coffee, tea, green tea, maté, kola nut, cocoa, pure cafeïne, pure theobromine, and i'm sure i'm forgetting some here.
Many other psycho-active tryptamines work synergystically as well; 5-MeO-DMT, bufotenin, psilocybin, psilocin, etc.
There are many other traditional compounds, but many of them are very dangerous as well. If you want to experiment, always start with a low dose.
 
Jorkest
#73 Posted : 1/5/2009 5:34:09 PM

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amen to that starting low
it's a sound
 
bufoman
#74 Posted : 1/5/2009 8:10:30 PM

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polytrip wrote:
Well, there is no preference in theobromine for cAMP effects that occur within the range of the DMT mind state. The brain activity that would normally be supressed by DMT would also be amplified by how theobromine intermediates in cAMP activity. This means that part of the DMT effects would be amplified and another part of it would be reduced. At least, that's my speculation.
I think THH is something that will make the balance tip to the other side, depending on the dosage. This would have to do with the increased amounts of DMT in the blood and the increased amounts in the brain itself as well.
On this forum there where speculations on wether the visual effects of DMT would be caused by it's serotonergic effects or it's effects on other transmitters. One argument here is that there are other tryptamines such as 5-MeO-DMT that affect the serotonergic system like DMT, but that lack visual activity.
At the same time 69ron once compared 5-MeO-DMT, DMT and bufotenin and it became clear that the most visual compound hast the longest lasting effect while the least visual compound has the shortest lasting effect. It's also a fact that 5-MeO-DMT becomes more visual when it's taken in combination with MAOI's and it becomes longer lasting.
I think that how long a molecule is active within the brain itself, may have something to do with this. This is ofcourse a pure speculation, but i think that 5-MeO-DMT has a shorter lasting effect on each receptor, that once it activated a receptor, it's removed by the brains mechanisms quickly. So if you block this mechanisms within the brain, not just the stomach, it will make any compound more visual.


5-MeO-DMT lasts as long as DMT if not longer. Also 5-OH-DMT is visual however the visuals are certainly different than DMT (although similaur). DMT is without a doubt more visual than bufotenine and much shorter acting. Additionaly there are other non-visual hallucinogens which last a very long time like MIPT, DET, AMT. It seems much more likely that the visual effects are mediated by an additional receptor/mechanism. One which 5-MeO-DMT does not bind to but visual compounds do. See Wallachs Endogenous Hallucinogen article for all this information. Also the visual effects start immediatly and tend to decrease if anything as the trip goes on. cAMP is not known to play a role in any of the DMT mediated 5-HT2a effects although it may for other sites for example TAAR1 although this is not known. Additionaly DMT's and other HA effects are not from a decrease in neural activity in fact most of these compounds lead to a genereal excitation of the cortex via enhanced glutamate transmission in the prefrontal cortex. Also the excitation of Theo is from its antagonism of adenosine receptors. Thus it is likely that the attenuation of visual effects by Theo is from some unknown mechanism.
Regarding 5-MeO-DMT becoming more visual with MAOI's. I am not sure where you heard this this is certainly not the case for SWIM and others he knows. Additionaly it seems unlikely as MAOI's are known to decrease the visuals of DMT and other visual hallucinogens. The reason for this is unknown but there is much speculation. There is something going on at the molecular level which attenuates the visual effects.
 
bufoman
#75 Posted : 1/5/2009 8:16:08 PM

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Also 5-MeO-DMT is orally active at around 35mg. Thus it has resistance to MAO that DMT does not have. Also MAO is not the only enzyme responsible for the metabolism for these compounds other unknown factors exist so this is also an issue. The effects of the two compounds are very different and without a doubt are a result of activity at different receptors. 5-MeO for example has significant activity at both 5-HT2a and 5-HT1a whereas DMT has much less affinity for 5-HT1a. However as Wallach's article describes this difference can not account for the difference in visual effects. Some additional site/mechanism must be responsible.
 
polytrip
#76 Posted : 1/5/2009 11:38:24 PM
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Well, there's one phenomenon where occam's razor doesn't work then. For one type of molecule to be able to affect such different transmitter systems at the same time...
Nevertheless, i believe you and 69ron disagree on the 5MeO-DMT and bufotenin thing here. I only have experience with these substances as one of the active ingredients in ayahuasca brews, so i wouldn't know about either pure 5-MeO-* or bufo.
 
bufoman
#77 Posted : 1/6/2009 12:00:49 AM

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Which thread is this info in?
 
bufoman
#78 Posted : 1/6/2009 12:09:57 AM

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I can not speak for 69ron but in the one thread on these three compounds he says that 5-MeO-DMT lasts abut 15 minutes which is about the same for DMT give or take. In SWIMS experience 5-MeO lasts slightly longer than DMT. DMT lasting about 10-15min depending on dose. Also he says that 5-MeO lacks the typical tryp visual which I also agree on as does almost everyopne. Bufotenine visual effects may be variable in users since 69ron seems to get very intense breakthrough visuals whereas SWIM and others while do get significant visuals these are not as intense as DMT and are strucutraly different in nature. I do not see any correlation between visual effects and duration of action of a drug as there are none, additionaly this makes little sense on the physiological side. There are plenty of examples which disprove this view including severeal known active compounds. I am not sure which points you are refering to us differing on but I would gladly adress any such points if you bring them to my attention.

 
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