I really dont know much about it. I met someone at a Christmas party who was drinking on it. Hes been on a pain plan as I. he told me the green vein has replaced the opiates. What I have read is that it been used for years for opiate DEPENDENCE but not neccessarily pain itself. He is also on the med mary jane program (Oregon,USA). Because it is not a FEDERAL law, ALL if not most construction jobs wont allow med marijuana scripts..so please dont suggest that. So I am not sure if its the weed helping and the kratom just took away opiate dependence. they say red vien is for energy. He just told me its too strong. Does it energize and relive wihtdrawal? How much do you do per 8hrs?. I dont plan on making it a subsitute as their has bee dependence reports of Kratom. What it will help is thae fact I have lost pills and took a few too many and they are strict on the refill date. I was just hoping to cut my opiate levels down. I have insurance so the pills are covered. he was on less pills then me and his bill for kratom is $400 a month (ouch!) this seems like a real good group at DMT-NEXUS. I am hoping to get real advise and experience. Not looking for "how high I got" looking for actuall medical help that has worked experience and dosage. I wont name my meds to give out who i might be to asshoe gov people who might be creeping around here btu i am on = to 60mg oxycodone 3x a day(total 180 mg) if that helps to where you are. Blessyou, thanks

grr.. i was so close to getting an arrest...
foiled again v_v

Hello!

I have somewhat extensive experience with Kratom, having used it since october-november of 2010 regularly with only a single 1-2 month break up until about 3 weeks ago. I was using it for chronic and acute pain caused by a spinal-fusion due to severe scoliosis. It is a very effective painkiller, due to it's mu- and delta-opioidergic effects. However, for the opiate-dependant individual, the painkilling effects are highly attenuated due to the downregulation of opiate receptors in the brain and body. For these people, it has the effect of reducing withdrawal symptoms while not administering a traditional opiate, thus allowing dependence on the usual opioid to diminish. However, it can simply replace the addiction and become a problem in and of itself. I hear lots of people say that Kratom has opioid effects while not being an opioid. I think that this isn't the case. It IS an opioid, just an atypical non-morphinan opioid. The primary actives that have opioid-receptor agonism bear resemblance to yohimbine and more distantly tryptamine.

I have stopped taking Kratom due to the fact that I developed a physical addiction and would withdraw within 24 hours of not administering the stuff. I was eating absurd amounts of the leaf, average 12+ grams a day, and it was starting to feel a bit toxic. The withdrawals are fairly short-lived, but still no fun. They are basically opiate W/D's with a strange SNRI sort of W/D. Very anxious, depressed, and flu-like aching in the hands and feet, as well as restless leg type symptoms. Altogether the acute phase is about 4 days, with the post-acute phase going until maybe two weeks at most. But, if you're trying to kick opiates, the trade-off is still worth it, as the withdrawals from pharmaceutical opioids are MUCH worse.

I NEVER paid 400$ a month. That is getting RIPPED-OFF, or just INSANE doses.. I found an indonesian wholesaler that I could get 1.7 kilos for 200 dollars which lasted probably 4-5 months. It was good stuff, too, Green-veined Malay - the regular red-veins were cheaper than that. I don't know exactly how much would need to be taken to alleviate opiate W/D's, for 180 mgs of oxycodone a day probably a good bit. I would start with 6 grams or so and just see. I'm sure more specific information about dose for that is floating around the internet.

really appreciate the prompt and descriptive response AFR One problem is that I have done it and had alcohol the same day. If I drink(rare) it like makes my medicine evaporate and I get early withdrawals..which sucks on the social life..going to bars etc. So that could be the reason it hasnt seem to do the trick. Another question is that I wonder how it works. Most herbs dont have immediate effect, thats why you can get them wihtout FDA regulation. What I should ask is it like a valium or a prozac? valiun is RIGHT NOW where prozac needs to build in the body. Do I do a kratom drink to replace that dose or do i need to build it up first for any w/d alleviaton?

You will feel the kratom within 30 minutes on an empty stomach. So it will most likely relieve any w/d symptoms immediately.

Be careful and try to buy from a good vendor. I've gotten kratom that didn't do anything at doses of 20 grams.

I suggest getting a capsule filler and size 00 capsules. It's a lot quicker and easier than making teas and more efficient IMO.

On the alcohol thing.. Watch out. I don't feel much respiratory depression on kratom alone, but one time I had a few (2-3?) beers and got severe respiratory depression. I had to have my wife keep me from nodding off, as I was afraid I would stop breathing.

I´ve tried it once. Wanted to see if it could be used as a sleep-aid. That didn´t realy work, but i had a pleasant though not very spectacular buzz for a few hours.

I can see how people can get addicted to the stuff, since it´s effects are so mild that taking more and more may seem harmless to many people.

Like alcohol, cocaine or cigarettes.

I dunno, I have a fair bit of experience with opioids of various forms, and find kratom to be somewhere in the middle of the ones I've sampled. At high doses (12+ grams) of good leaf, I get stronger opioidergic effects than I get from hydrocodone and even perhaps tramadol. In comparison to pharmaceutical opioids that the OP may be familiar with (or at least that I am), it feels most like methadone or tramadol. It has about 27 actives that all cause various effects, leading to a veritable bouquet of psychoactivity.
7-hydroxymitraginine is most likely largely responsible for the opioidergic effects, being roughly 4 times more potent in binding to the mu-opioid receptor site than morphine itself (however it is only present in minimal amounts, hence kratom's relative "mildness"!. There is also mitragynine, which at low doses is an adrenergic stimulant and at high doses a delta/mu-Opiate receptor agonist, the most abundant active in the leaf at approx. half of the total alkaloid content; as well as 25 more with varied pharmacologies (muscle relaxants, I believe opioid receptor antagonists, adrenergic stimulants, cerebrocirculants, and more.)

So the effects are really more complex and varied than most pharmaceutical opioids and morphinan-derivitives. I never found it to mix well with alcohol, except maybe at low doses of both, and even then it was more just me making myself appreciate a just so-so feeling.

At first i had thought Kratom was just another opiate with no redeeming qualities, but over the past two years or so I have really grown fond of this herb. I do not do it more than twice a week, usually only once and I can not say I have ever experienced any withdrawals from it. This herb actually has given me spiritual experiences before... and significantly changed my life.. I might even go so far as to say that it helped save my after-life as well... Some of the leaf out there is meh, some is more MWAHAHA and I gotta recommend the vendor meridian botanicals for their stuff. Very good prices and extremely good quality, with this kratom I find myself using 6-8 grams per session. Really a misunderstood herb for many I think, to me, it is quite a special indole...

Couldn't agree more. Just ordered 112 grams of Green Malay, and 5-6 grams (with cannabis) was a fantastic experience. I realize it is looked down upon because of its addiction potential, but i think it is a wonderful substance. I don't understand why its use isn't more widespread (apposed to using RXs and traditional opiates).

It has strong oneirophoric qualities at high doses (like all opioids). Very slight visual effect reminiscent of the indole hallucinogens, "softening" and slight "shimmering". This is something that tends to go away once tolerance/dependance has been established.

I think opioids in general have some very interesting, even visionary qualities - it's just that they're so damn seductive for a certain percentage of the population... and then, when they have you, they fucking have you.

I will say for kratom that the addiction took many months of ridiculous and irresponsible use on my part to develop, and even then wasn't as severe as my previous withdrawal experiences with hydrocodone were (even though, paradoxically, I got better/stronger effects from good kratom than I did hydrocodone...).



@dogmess: I used to really think kratom was a godsend for me, I called it "the Peasant Sage". I think if it began to seriously supplant pharmaceutical opioids, there would be a mass prohibition a media war against the stuff (a la cannabis). In fact, this is already underway, unfortunately....

yeah alluminium i have also had some quite psychedelic experiences with opium. i find for me opium usually becomes a little more psychedelic later in the experience when i'm almost ready for bed. had some really amazing CEV's few months ago on a poppy experience. poppy is really quite an interesting plant to experiment with as long as you excersise self control.

thanks for all the responses. more always welcome . I know I could never get the "shimmers" from it as I am so high opiate dose. I never was into opiates..i am adrenaline addict, I reach a point of zen when its pumping, like skydiving..i tune in perfect. I will say that opiates REALLY made my dreams moer intense but in a good way. used to have many mightmares. end of the world James Bond shit. Now I can control to where i love my sleep life. Beautiful women, good times and if I wake I can usually get back to where I was if I focus. You have to wonder if we do live an alternate life in a different dimension when we dream..or are we actually awakening??? I remember having a dream that was like Matrix b4 it came out. Now thoughI can smell taste feel. thast tthe one thing I will miss if I do cut them out totally. Otherwise it sucks. Now I HAVE to work so I have insurance. Used to working overtime and then dissapearing for a while. Now I am dependent on something. the one thing this survivalist has to worry about if the SHTF. Mostof my apin problems actually was due to my dreams..my muscles tighten in lower back locking me up. I used to dread having to sleep, because pain would be the next thing i feel.
peace, love