For all those who´re sceptic about how the world is changing: brazil has just passed britain as the 6th economy in the world. Britain and france will soon be thrown out of the G8 of large economy´s. About a year ago, china stole the 2nd place on the ranking list from japan and will most likely pass america within 10 to 15 years.
Within that time period, no european nation will be part of the top 10 of largest economies anymore.

This is the new, current list.
1-USA
2-china
3-japan
4-germany
5-france
6-brazil
7-britain
8-russia
9-italy
10-india

Kiss your imperialist 'grandeur' goodbye, england. And welcome to the club of small, insignificant country´s ....welcome to the real world.

TBH I didn't even know we were that high... Oh well.

What's your source on the UK and France being kicked out of the G8? The G8 is not and never has been a measure of the largest economies, it's just a group of fairly rich like-minded ones.

Yeah, i know. I meant 'as a matter of speaking', because in the real world, the old club of colonial empires has become a bit obsolete. As far as america and china are concerned, there´s only one club of relevance, wich is ofcourse the G2.

I just meant to say: wake-up people, we may think we´re on top of the world, but we realy aren´t.

The old colonial empires still haven´t figured that out. They realy believe that they´re still calling the shots....look at afghanistan, libya and iraq. America has fallen for what is called 'imperial overstretch' and the brits...aren´t even an empire. It´s hard not to see how blair and the like´s have not fundamentally overestimated british economic and military power. Yet, i bet that many brits still think today that they could win another war with iran.

I fear that even americans are more realistic when it comes to their own power these days.

People like to think they´re on top of the world. It´s deeply rooted in western counsciousnes to believe we are superiour. Look at stuff like 'live aid' etc, or media coverage of the 'arab spring'.

I´m not uncomfortable with living on an irrelevant little corner of the world, but strange enough i AM a bit uncomfortable with the irony of that situation, if you know what i mean.

Being from Brazil on one hand there's this "oh nice" feeling when one reads something like this, but I know that this growth is neither sustainable. Brazil may have several interesting developments that avoids some of the mistakes done by the so-called 'developed countries'. But at the same time I see a lot of unsustainability, that are interconnected with the world's general state of affairs. Just a couple of examples: Monoculture-based agriculture model that fuck up the earth, such as huge soya plantations that are used to feed the cattle (which is over-eaten) where previously there were forests, plus cattle being inneficient protein source and with all the methane they release being linked to global warming.

Or take for example the energetic model, Brazil is still hugely exploring fossil fuels, which will probably last longer than many other sources around the world (and btw, recently also there was a considerable oil spill from a Chevron/Exxon digging platform, near paradise beaches of Rio de Janeiro coast). Or the stupidly built hydroelectric powerplants such as the gigantic Belo Monte in the Xingu river, which is forcing the removal of several indigenous tribes, and is not very efficient because it is a very flat river, plus most of the development is for industries such as aluminium making (think twice before using so much aluminium foil!), which is gonna be exported and the money is going to small amount of rich owners (so it doesnt really translate into development for most of the country, and yet it uses up public funding to finance part of the construction).

Or we could talk about the corruption which sucks up so much of that money, and how, while the low classes are gaining more economic power in some places, there is still a huge gap between rich and poor. Or so on and so on

Or several other things I could talk about... So while this is interesting news, it also has dark sides to it. Let's hope countries such as Brazil realize that "growth" for the sake of it doesn't work and is bound to end in a crash when unsustainability shows itself and it's too late to prevent a crash.

I like not to look at it in terms of good or bad, because many people will benefit and many people will get hurt when the great coggwheels of this planet start moving. And there´s nothing anybody can do about that anyway. You can´t stop the coggwheels from spinning. They´re to big.

What i like is that we in the west will maybe be forced to face reality some more.

Reality should come first...THEN and only then, we can say whether we like it or not and if we want to do something about it.

We´ve been doing it the other way round for a bit too long.

I agree with you to some extent, but doesn't isn't this too disempowering? What about personal responsibility ? Wouldnt you say that at least some people directly or indirectly end up having a big impact on the state of affairs?

Shouldn't we at least try, through small personal actions and trying, within one's own limits, possibilities and potentials, influence others and society too, to direct the world to the best direction we find? And in that sense, isn't it important to try to see, in every social/political/economic development, try to realize what are the advantages and disadvantages, good and bad points, to try to diminish the negative impacts and maximize the beneficial aspects in oneself or society?

I never got this one but as you mentioned it I would like to ask politely why is it that some English may think they are on the top of the world ? I live in UK but I am not English and I just always wondered why ? I do not get it.

Most of the people here dont even have the same level of education then people from Europe. I am not saying that Europeans are better or worse though.

I really need to know what may make some UK people think that they are better that others. Could anyone explain this to me please?

I dunno if your not living trying to consume less already I don't see how you can move into that stage. psychedelics told me i need to be less consuming so I am. I never really had a choice in the matter, maybe you were the same endlessness?

Yeah proto-pax, psychedelic lessons, 'feeling' the consequences of one's actions and a bit of critical thinking.

Yes, you´re right.
But i think that will be the innevitable consequence of waking up.

A good example: where i live, we have this annual remembrance of the second world war at the 4th of may.
People are standing still, acting or pretending to act real solemnly and trying to put a frown on their faces that makes them look like they´re realy, very seriously contemplating the horrors of war.
Then they hold some speaches and they´ll say:"never again".
They´ll speak about swiss banks that helped the nazi´s in storing their lute and about companies like IBM that sold computers to the third reich and how a disgrace that is...."how could people collaborate with those bastards, those evil nazi´s?"

But it´s all nothing but a sharade to make us look good: "look at those nazi´s and the people who collaborated with them. Look at how evil they where. We are not like those people. We´re the good guys".

But at the same time we sell all kinds of weaponry to the most brutal regimes and we also sell stuff like tasers to country´s like nigeria...where it´s used to torture people. And everybody knows what they´re being used for. No-one is fooling anybody here.

But ofcourse that´s all 'different' and comparisons to what IBM did back then are ofcourse all very 'inapropriate', 'tasteless' and 'disrespectfull' to the victims of WW2.
After all: this is the way the economy works, it´s just busines..right?

It´s just an example of how we should maybe try to descend from our comfy clouds a little and try to land our feet back on what other earthlings tend to call 'solid ground'.

For many centuries the British Empire was the biggest empire EVER. Look at all the commonwealth nations and you know how big this empire really was: Australia, India, Canada and a good part of Africa. World War 2 effectively made an end to this empire after which we saw the rise of the new superpowers USA and USSR.

Looking back at this the British people will have something that makes them proud. They are the heritage of what once was the number one in the entire world and that for such a relatively small country, the ethics of this can be debated but it is pretty impressive nonetheless!


Kind regards,

The Traveler

Thank you for that Trav, this is something I thought could be the fact that effected people's feelings but why are people identifying with something that does not exist any more? Cant they see ? Guess not.

Also my mother always thought me to be humble and never treat people differently. What do the parents and teachers teach kids in this country I wonder. I would not want my child to go to school here.

I have been living in UK for about 10 years but I will be moving out soon I believe. I just can not take this crap any more.

The arrogance of those colonial days sill lives on in europe. That utterly misplaced feeling of superiority. Very annoying

I used to work for some organisations involved in foreign-aid. The people in those organisations (not all, but many) where terribly arrogant. The idea that one day, african countries could maybe prosper, grow and do well without western money is just inconceivable to many of these people.
Many of these foreign-aid workers resent the very idea, even.

They didn´t even want to work with targets and deadlines and such. Wich proves to me that they didn´t realy care about the people they where supposedly trying to help..otherwise you´d expect them to want to get results ASAP. Wouldn´t you?

In many ways, we still look at the world from that weird colonial, 'superiour' perspective. Just in different, sometimes more subtle forms.

But we´re only fooling ourselves. I don´t think the rest of the world realy gives a shit about what we want and how presumably noble our intentions are.
So we´re not realy helping anybody and often, like in afghanistan, iraq, etc, our failures are catastrophic.

Sometimes i even feel a little embarassed to be a westerner. Not because we´re no longer powerfull and stuff. I don´t care about those flags and trumpet things.
But because we think we still are, and because that very delusion of superiority ironically makes us even more insignificant than we already are...

When i think of the west, in my mind i see a very big, 'glorious' banner on a turd. It´s just becoming a bit embarrasing.

Being proud of something can help a lot with keeping the respect and responsibility for it alive. It's better to be proud of your country and doing your best to keep a high standard than neglecting it since 'it is already worth nothing anymore so why should I care?'.

People can think of their country as evil and full of corporate fat cats or... they could think of their country as something that accomplished something great in the past and by working together they might accomplish new great things in other areas. Being depressed and full of shame for your country is not something that I will identify as positive.

Learn from the past what was done wrong (slavery, war, oppression) and learn from the past what was done right (working together for a higher goal). So I see nothing wrong by being proud of your country, it's what you do with that proudness that might be questionable.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

Nothing wrong with feeling on top of the world Isn't that what we all strive for?!

But I have to say this UK / English bashing irritated me a little bit (not just this post btw). Is it not a little presumptuous to tar us all with the same brush? Is it our fault that we are governed by war mongering buffoons?!

I agree that many many people in this country are sub-par when it comes to the education they have received / bunked off school and missed - and interestingly enough they tend to be the ignorant/ arrogant/ nationalistic etc, but I think it is equally ignorant to insinuate that because we were once a very powerful nation (and compare the size of our country to that of our empire!!!) that we are fast becoming a pathetic speck on the 'world scene' - like it or not, the UK played a VERY large part in shaping the world as it is today, and that, for the most part, IS something to be proud of.

Haven't you noticed that the people who need to go around feeling some how superior to others are actually in some way insecure, and so feel the need to be 'better' than others? Don't you see that bad mouthing the British is just as bad as the arrogant jingoism that you encounter within the British population? It is just as stifling to the 'waking up' that everyone around here is so fond of as the pig headedness of which you speak. Yes, these attitudes can be frustrating, but taking the opposite side because you dislike something will only cause more conflict.

Instead of becoming / being fed up with British people, it may be a better idea to hang out with a different crowd of people who share your views, it can't be that difficult, none of my friends have an inflated sense of national pride... I for one couldn't give a rats arse what country you come from as long as you are a decent human being.

Maybe you´re right. But if there´s one lesson to be learned, i think it would be to stall our judgements about other cultures that are alien to us. And not to see ourselves as more civilised.

Seeing yourself as more civilised than others is ironically, a very tribal reflex...something for cavemen, realy.

I am a westerner. Saying that i´m a true cosmopolitan therefore, wouldn´t be very realistic unfortunately. Because i probably wouldn´t do well in many sub-saharan society´s for instance.

What i want for myself, is to be as open as i can be.

Ofcourse, if people are burning 'witches' somewhere like they do in the horn of africa, i do not aprove of that and i don´t see 'cultural background' as an excuse for such things.
But i do not want to see every african as a person that burns witches either..i don´t want to shut my ears the moment i hear music that´s so novel to me that i do not yet fully understand it, like i do with western music.

I do not agree with that, this planet did not need world police playing gods to shape it. It was shaping it self very nicely till humans come to play. Since then all went wrong as you can see now. We do not need any nation - country to play world police and gods (USA at the moment with UK help) but this is my opinion and I respect yours as well.



Yes I have noticed it. I do see that and hope you understand that this is not what I meant. I am just curious. I want to know what makes the people to have this false feelings.



I would like to hang out with all the people without being ridiculed and laughed at. Why do I have to be looking for certain tipe of people. And please tell me where to find "my" people then ?

I definitely agree with you on this. It is what you do with that proudnes that is questionable. Many people are proud of the wrong part of the past and thats where it all went wrong. Thats what I think and hope that people will see it and learn from it instead of embracing it.

So I do agree with being proud but only if it is to learn from mistakes from the past and embracing the good things we have done in the past. That would be the only "be proud" variant I would accept and undertsand as positive.

It´s not about britain. Many people (alos brittons btw) speak the same way about americans for instance.

I live in the netherlands, but that country is even more insignificant. So insignificant that if i would have talked about how superiour dutch people feel and how misplaced that is, no-one would even have bothered reading this thread And you can say the same about france and the other old colonial powers.

The dutch have commited massacre´s in indonesia. My government has only recently apologised for one such massacre and only because the case went to several courts.

The way dutch people are speaking about muslims is realy sickening. My government is, like the current british government, a coalition government of three party´s. One of wich officially states it would want to ethnically cleanse the nation.

No-one bothers because 'it´s only muslims'.

But if i would have adressed dutch instead of british arogance, no-one would have even bothered, because it´s only those silly dutch.

So my point is: we´re ALL silly little nations that suffer from this misplaced arrogance. In 15 years from now, britain will have the same relative economical, military and therefore political position as a country like the netherlands or australia..somewhere just outside of the top 10 of large powers.

Don´t be insulted if i say that britain is insignificant. Pride in military power, flags, trumpets and pompous ceremony´s is a bit childish.

I´d rather would urge you to rejoice in our insignificance, because it forces us to see that we realy need eachother if we want to make something of this world.

And pride and misplaced sentiments of glory are realy preventing us to see that and to make that step.

Rejoice in our own insignificance, so we can finaly reach out to the rest of the world.
Thát is realy my main point.