I don't see that this link constitutes any argument against the fact that Jesus didn't disapprove of the Old Testament.



Sure, there are some neat little things one can draw out of the New Testament where Jesus says some good things, but the overwhelming bad things he says cannot be neglected. His moral (as presented, I don't know about the real Jesus) is morally primitive in so many cases, while at other places it is good. This is so inconsistent that it leaves bad taste in my mouth, and he is certainly not an advocate of simple peace and love and sunshine. Thus, his morals - as presented - are not in its essence very good because of the large amount of barbaric statements.



This comparison is bogus. The actions done by Stalin was not done in the name of atheism, but they were done as a result of totalitarianism and political dogma. The same can't be said about the evils done by Christianity, because these actions were not only done in the name of Christianity, but were in fact flat out religious actions.

Sorry, but these claims don't actually stand up to scrutiny. Giving preeminence to the Thereveda sutras, as The Buddha's Lists, for example doesn't make sense in light of the textual evidence. The oldest known Buddhist scriptures, the Gandhāran Buddhist Texts contain material which was later considered to be Mahāyāna doctrines and which conflict with the Thereveda canon. They also show that extensive editing was done to the "original" sutra material, just as with the Christian gospels.

Even neglecting this material, I see that at least a few of the chapters in The Buddha's Lists contain material known to originate at a very late date.

Regarding whether Śākyamuni claimed to be a god or not, even in the scriptures you appear to prefer, I do not think that is very clear. He does assert that none like him have come before and none like him will come after (in this age). Compare the his teachings on Pratyekabuddhas, Śrāvakabuddhas and Samyaksambuddhas.

this response is not what you're looking for, but something I feel I should add.
as someone that grew up in the church, and has now gone through being bitter and hating the church, to now being ok with it; trying to convince someone to not follow a religion based off logic won't help the person. rather than trying to convince their mind it would be better to just love the person where they are and talk to them honestly without any expectations of them changing. the more I've tried to convince my old friends that christianity is stupid and doesn't make sense the stronger they get in their resolve to stick with it. I've found that being an example of love in someone's life will give them more than I could have given them with any logic or conversation. when people are in bad spots they don't want someone to lecture them they need love and acceptance.
just my opinion and based off my experiences

like carlin said, pick your superstition.
chances are, they're all equally bogus

Basically, if your goal is to change your aunt's viewpoint on spiritual matters, rather than trying to logically convert her (because when does buddhism prove itself? it frequently sounds equally crazy) you should learn to talk to her in her terms.

Let's not forget the gnostics, who generally believed that God the Father was a totally evil bastard who hates everything, and that you need to basically meditate yourself into oneness with the Godhead/Tao thing so as to break free from the suffering-filled illusion of the material world. Sound familiar, anyone?

In some belief systems, Jesus and the life of Jesus are primarily important as metaphor-- and Jesus does give instructions for how to reach a Christ/Buddha state: follow me. IMO, he's not talking about his mortal ego, Jesus. Rather, Christ consciousness. By figuratively following in Jesus' footsteps, giving away all material possessions etc, praying (read=meditating) copiously in the wilderness, overcoming inner desires, and eventually experiencing death/rebirth you can obtain Christ/Buddha consciousness.

The Cathars believed that all humans nurtured a divine spark, and that in order to unite with it you must renounce all power and power-related connections, instead embracing love and egalitarianism. They revered all life, and considered it grievous to kill anything, and so the vast majority were vegetarians. In typical medieval Catholic fashion, a crusade was declared against them and they were all killed, but I think that's a black mark against Catholicism, not Christianity as a whole.

Don't throw out the baby with the bath water, every religion (especially in its modern form) has a distinctly unsavory cultural/ethical side to it which seems unconnected to its true tenets; I think entirely dismissing belief systems on that basis instead of trying to learn what you can from them is unnecessary... in the same way, I know a lot of people who dislike "Food of the Gods" because Terence makes occasional broad, sweeping statements which he doesn't back up and uses a share of "out there" terminology, however, when you get past that, he has a lot of great ideas. You don't ever need to subscribe to the entirety of something to appreciate the good parts.

I couldn´t have said it any better.

Religion and spirituality are deeply personal, and its difficult if not impossible to change many peoples views on either. I would simply encourage her to find her own truths with any belief she seeks, and to take what anyone else tries to tell her about them with a grain of salt.

...in your opinion, which doesn't hold much water unless you've actually had experience with all of the said "superstitions" you claim are probably "bogus". In my experience of practicing both Christianity and Buddhism, it's the latter that has helped me the most, and not because I have a culturally conditioned bias that I was born into (I was raised Christian)- it's because one is based off fear and dogma, while the other is based off love, compassion, gratitude, and (since you are a scientist) incorporates a system of thought/attention control with studied and proven benefits- meditation and mindfulness. Logically it's the latter that makes the most sense in terms of personal growth and usefulness.



I'm not trying to change her viewpoint- as far as I know, her mind is not made up yet. Like I said, she only feels drawn to Christianity, so there is still hope for her. And Buddhism has, in a sense, proved itself to me when I applied techniques of gratitude, compassion, meditation and mindfulness to my life which lifted my depression, inspired me to be more grateful, and gave me better control over my thoughts and emotional reactions to the thoughts. That doesn't sound "crazy" to me. Granted, anyone can apply these techniques without following traditional Buddhism, but that's the beauty of it- I'm not condemned to hell for eternity for not being dogmatic and taking what I want from it.

Folks, this thread is not about Christianity VS Buddhism. That's comparing two very different things. One is a fear-based religion, the other is a love and meditation-based system of understanding the mind. From now on, please only contribute to the discussion if it's on topic. Thanks.

I'd prefer that closet-christians posing as "agnostics" took their proselytizing somewhere else. Thanks.

Having grown up Lutheran now sitting with a carving a Buddha behind my back, I agree with you. However, I think some progressive christians might disagree with your statement. I feel even the dogmatic christian can shed his clothes and find universal truths. In case you missed it, the following webcast was pretty moving.

of course, those are subject to interpretation, and ultimately, not universally observed..hence, subjective **.
** results may vary

I'm certainly not doubting a resonating mind can do wondrous things;
and I could toss salt over my shoulder, and talk to Dr. Seuss every night. I suppose that could
encourage "personal growth" too.

I love this quote!! "There are many paths up the mountain." i never try to talk anyone out of what they choose to believe.. because i do not care if you pray to a baseball.. as long as when you get up off your knees.. you treat everyone with love and respect.. i just wish more understood this much about life

Not such a good analogy but hey, I give you credit for trying. Instead of demonstrating your ignorance on the subject, why don't you check out the hundreds of studies done on the benefits of meditation and mindfulness, or better yet, practice it yourself- it might even lessen your arrogance.

Edit- added more. I could fill up a whole thread but I'll spare you.

http://nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/~lazar/

http://www.scientificame...?id=meditation-on-demand

http://www.npr.org/templ...tory.php?storyId=4770779

http://www.noetic.org/li...ical-effects-meditation/

http://www.huffingtonpos...n-research_b_780525.html

I like how you pretend like you know me; I do meditate occaisionally.
so I don't need to read science papers to know it may affect some in profound ways, but I also know it doesn't work for everyone. belief in mythical characters is optional.

I don't pretend to know you but you make yourself sound ignorant/arrogant when you post stuff like that. Instead of having a close-minded attitude towards meditation, why don't we just agree that it's a lot more useful than Christianity?

Btw, if it doesn't work it's not necessarily due to lack of effectiveness of meditation, but maybe improper technique.

speak for your own ignorance/arrogance.
I'm sure since you meditate so much, you feel "enlightened".
meditation is a subjective experience, it doesn't necessarily affect everyone the same.

and I originally commented on religious dogma, not meditation.

looks like this thread got hijacked

sorry, not my intention. I was merely referencing the musings of the late George Carlin with respect to religious dogma

I just don't appreciate being accosted by the same members, it's really getting old.

Doesn't sound fear-based to me, at all.

Edit: Also, every characterization that you make of Christianity applies to religious Buddhism. Check out Zen at War for some particularly egregious examples, but it runs through everywhere where Buddhism became a State-affiliated religion.

what the world needs now is love sweet love that,s the only thing that theres just to little of!! SING it with me!!! what the world needs now is love sweet love.......dum dee dum dee dum