..actually, i do know a few pretty progressive christians, so it is wrong, as the Traveler pointed out, to generalize..
i also think it would be possible to believe in the spiritual aspects of Jesus without being a 'christian'..
..essentially i would take becoming a christian implies adopting a particular set of beliefs of a church which excludes others, but this is not always the case,
and it is not automatically negative..it is the outcome and person which determines that kind of value judgement..
my reasons above for not becoming a christian are rational rather than emotive..
.

I agree that if we define God in such a way that his/its existence can be logically refuted, then God as defined does not exist. This is an exercise in logic and semantics, but it doesn’t really address the existence of God. All it might show is that certain groups and individuals define God in strange ways, but this is something we all know already.

Fair enough, but then it can be shown that some of the definitions of God, perhaps especially those of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God (and I think you agree with this) are flawed and that such a God couldn't exist. This was what I wanted to show, because we are after all spesifically addressing Christianity, and not some of the more sophisticated and interesting definitions and concepts of God that I think both you and I like a whole lot better.

I understand why you would say this, but I'm not relying solely on the information of others for my argument. I don't need to ask others for reasoning, I'm just trying to get a lot of information put together before I talk to her about it. Plus, others might be able to phrase this information better than I could. I value the input of my fellow Nexians.



Where do you think they get their closed-minded, fundamentalist proselytizing attitude and behavior? The bible. I dislike what christianity has done, as well as what it is today. I agree that Jesus probably was in the same boat as Siddhartha and attained some type of cosmic consciousness, but in our time, for the most part, christianity is evil, viral, and spiritually dead, IMHO.

Citta, I will copy and paste your post. Thank you. Do you happen to have more examples of bible verses like the ones you posted?

Does anyone else?

Good point Traveler, but in my 10 or so years of calling myself a christian and studying the bible, going to church, talking with fellow christians, and then subsequent 15 years of experience with christians as an EX-christian, I feel justified in generalizing them because most all of them I've had experience with seem to think and behave in very similar ways.

I already gave you a link to a bunch of passages, but I can copy paste some more into this thread since you're asking.

This is what God says if you do not follow him:

Deuteronomy 28;58-61

Another nice one about the enemies of God:

-Deuteronomy 2:34

A nice God much?

- Deuteronomy 6:15

- Deutoronomy 7:2

- Deuteronomy 7:16

One about homosexuality:

- Lev 20:13

If you look at this link, you can find many more yourself

Christians believe that God literally had to send his only begotten son down to earth to die a brutal death on a cross so that our pathetic souls could get to heaven. They also believe that you can have a lifetime of sins and then just before you die you can profess Jesus as your lord and savior and you will go to heaven after you die.

You can't seen any difference in this than oh say Buddhism?

Trying to box all religions in with a sweeping statement just doesn't work for me. They aren't all the same. There are what I call malignant way's of thinking/believing and religions such as Christianity and Islam promote them.

Back to topic though...I don't think you shouldn't try to change her. She is being pulled the direction she is being pulled. Do you think the Dali Lama would try to change her? Or would her just try to fill her with compassion?

Peace

You realize there are various interpretations to this, and taking this literally would be the most improbable one, as it would be inconsistent with previous teachings and parables of Jesus.



I think they got that attitude from neglectfulness of the word of Christ. Is it impossible to be an individual Christian, meaning to follow solely the Gospel, and disaffiliate oneself from the corrupted nature of Christendom?

Trav I have never in my life met a christian that fits this definition. I can allow that these sorts of Christians exist, but then at some point if they really believe in personal development the path of christianity has to come up dry as there are no instructions on how to meditate or achieve peace of mind. Christianity of Today is nothing like Buddhism of today or any eastern religion for that matter. Yes there are different Christians out there, but they all share a belief in the truth of a book that is totally illogical and seem to be completely unable to use logic to move past a completely asinine belief.

For what it's worth I do think the Jesus probably did teach a message similar to the Buddha, but you can't find that message in the Bible of today. Perhaps the Christian gnostics were onto something..and perhaps still are.

What I find written , and what I've seen the vast majority of Christians believe is completely and total unreconcilable to my mind. I think the real teachings of Jesus (if he really lived) have long since been perverted and he would find he entirety of his religion far removed from the words he preached. Perhaps I'm a little jaded growing up in the deep south with christian extremism, but living in the far north now I don't see much difference...a little softer perhaps. Christians are by and large a completely irrational group of people...when it comes to the topic of God/spirituality...and for that matter politics.

Peace

You realize this is the so called word of God that man is supposed to base his life on right? Don't you think God would have said exactly what he wanted? Why would he trick us with parables and riddles and misinformation?

Look the book say's exactly what it say's. Flat out. Don't try to change the words to make it feel better. Go read it. read it cover to cover. It's pretty evil.

Core tenet of Buddhism is that periodically the Dharma becomes so faint that the Buddha has to incarnate to transmit it again. Otherwise all other incarnated beings are so wrapped up in Samsara that they have no hope of liberating themselves on their own. That's why taking refuge is so important for Buddhist practitioners.

Also, most strands of Buddhism believe that taking refuge is enough to ensure that you're on the path to liberation, even though it may take many reincarnations. Pure Land Buddhism has a nearly direct analogy to professing Jesus as your lord and savior to go to heaven. As one of the most popular Buddhist doctrines, historically, it's difficult to say that it's not a real Buddhism.

Also, like many Christians, the Dalai Lama believes that homosexual activity damns you to hell. Not for eternity, but for aeons and aeons of suffering.

Arguments are futile when it comes to personal beliefs of people.
There´s one argument though, i would like to share in relation to this, because it both touches the aspect of spirituality AND logic: If god has created this world with us in it, equipped with all our powers of reason....a world where there are so many of these materialistic arguments against religion, it would be fair to say that if he wouldn´t have wanted us to base the way we live our lives and how we treat others on what´s given to us in this material realm, he would be a very sadistic god. If he wouldn´t want us to base our actions on what we can know instead of on vague contradicting speculations, then he would be playing some sadistic game with us...and then it wouldn´t be the good god you´d want to worship.

So if god exists and he is a good god, then he would want us to deal with life the way it is, instead of having some book or some old guy in rome telling us what to think and what to feel.

Thát´s what spirituality is all about IMO: living a good, ethical life, here and now.

Yes, of course I realize this, I am not that blind and dumbfounded. However, the problem with scripture is by and large that many of its interpretations - including the literal ones - can be used and have been used to justify atrocities in the name of faith. Furthermore, when Jesus says something nice, and then goes on to say something that sounds right out evil and barbaric, it shows clearly how inconsistent the scriptures really are. It's just a bunch of silly illogical, inconsistent and often barbaric nonsense. We should've left these books to gather dust on the shelves a long time ago (I would have prefered burning them, though )

And, as joedirt said, how many other ways is it to intepretate many of the passages that are supposedly the direct word of God? He also says that all of the rules and all of his commands should be followed, and that nothing should be added nor substracted from his words. Doesn't leave much interpretation for us petty humans, now does it? It just doesn't cut it to try in sheer desperation to say that we must interpretate things so that it looks better.

No doubt, the New Testament is incompatible with the Old Testament. I do not deny this at all. I'm specifically talking about the teachings of Jesus Christ, though. Taking that specific quote of Jesus in a literal fashion would be inconsistent with the essence of his general teachings. I'm not a Christian by the way; I'm an agnostic, but I find nothing wrong with people who wish to lead their lives as Jesus did, and to think that eastern religions are superior in terms of spirituality than Christianity doesn't seem sensible to me.

Christian =/= Catholic

Believe in Jesus and his word... but please don't follow any church, any dogma or authority... --> the big humanity fkt up

It is not just this one passage from Jesus, there are dozens of them where Jesus says pretty evil things. His teachings are not by and large good as presented in scripture, they are rather morally primitive and disgusting. You can't dodge this fact. Furthermore, how do you argue against the fact that Jesus came not to dispute the Old Testament, but to uphold the law?

- Matthew 5:17

- John 10:35

He says explicitly that he came to fulfill the Old Testament, and the Old Testament is filled with barbarism, murder, torture, abuse and violence.

Ok first off I'm not trying to argue for Buddhism, but I will hold ground over Buddhism being more rational than Christianity...I'll never conceded that point.

Get the Book, "The Buddha's Lists" for his words and his words alone. Like Christianity, Buddhism has been tampered with. Unlike Christianity we have the actual words of the Buddha preserved. Also Buddha didn't claim to be God. He claimed to be a man...it was men that elevated him to a God like statues which he denied. There was an awful lot of 'extra' added to Buddhism over the years, but to call it part of the core of Buddhism is wrong. Most Buddhist scholars, unlike most christian scholars, have no issue talking about the real history of Buddhism and admitting what was added in at what time. It's 100 times more transparent, though still cloudy at times for sure.

Remember Im not saying Jesus was wrong. I'm saying that we simply don't have any idea what jesus actually said beyond a few parables and sayings...therefore christians don't have a path forward. Therefore they largely endup in self righteous indignation for the unbelievers.

I'll also openly admit that I have some internal baggage from my youth with regards to this subject. It angers me that I was brought up with such bullshit. It took years to get past the brainwashing. Yeah I have issues and I realize I need to work on them more, but It bothers me to see a comment try and equate Christianity to Buddhism. One is based on logic and reason..CORE TENANTS...the other is based on blind faith.

I know you were just trying to get me to see both sides ragabar, but you will have to try harder. I know two much about both of these religions...and at least for now I'm still internally jaded against Christianity...though you might find it interesting that I do indeed look up to what I believe Jesus actually was. It's his religion I find despicable....not him.

These two religions, as they stand today, simply can't be compared. Now you want to compare Gnostics then you get to a point of possible comparison, but even then still miles apart.

[quote=easyrider]



Can you show me spiritual teachings of christianity? Where are Jesus's teachings of calming the mind? Where does he give instructions on finding God. Where does he give real advice on how to cool the fires of anger? Sure he talks about why we shouldn't be this way, but how do we go about becoming better? He commanded us to "Be ye perfect even as your father in heaven is perfect", yet left not instructions on how to achieve said perfection....this is what makes Buddhism different. It's the information that we know. Maybe Jesus was just like Buddha, but we don't know that from the Bible.

Let's put aside which one is the 'truth' for a moment. Buddhims is a path towards self realization with bona-fide instructions on how to achieve this goal. Christianity is not. Well it is, but only if you profess Jesus as your lord and savior...by faith not works. I'm sorry, but in this case Buddhism at least gives a person a method to try and test. Lastly even if Buddhism is wrong it gives one the tools to change their mind, and by extension their life...repeatably. Not one off "I found God" experiences...which are also very powerful.

So honesty...I do feel that as an actual spiritual tradition, Buddhism trumpts Christianity in that it at least provides a method to test for one's self.

I've been both in my life. one path has led to real personal growth while one led to low self esteem and a since of guilt. Others may find it different than I. I do respect everyone's right to believe as they chose, but I'm not going to sit silent and watch christianity be equated to buddhism. They are not the same as we know today.

Btw I'm not buddhist...I just find his philosophy to be pretty spot on with what my science tells me. The core teachings are pure logical analysis.

^^This.

I just wish the real teachings of Jesus were around because I think the world would be much better if his followers actually
has a means and method to "go and be perfect" as was commanded of them.

Ok I'll de hijack this thread for awhile...I've been a posting maniac today.

http://www.gotquestions....abolish-fulfill-law.html

Plus, this all depends on how one should view Jesus as. As a mere mortal being who chose to revolutionize his own religion and people? As a mere mortal being whose gradual spiritual ascension solidified a revelation of how man should act? As a divine being whose experiences in his mortal life have paved the path for his awareness? Who knows, but the essence of the teachings of Jesus cannot be described as morally primitive, rather the opposite. How is turning the other cheek morally primitive? How is being cosmopolitan morally primitive? How is preaching the word of love morally primitive? Using the history of Christianity to burn the legacy of Jesus is insensible to me. I don't think the practice of state atheism under the USSR makes atheism evil.