I agree with the prescence of this thread brought about by 'coatl's venting... each person has the absolute right to do anything they wish to do, while living in a society, if it does not interfere with the rights of others- Rights, contrariwise, to proceed upon whatever course of action they may prefer; Each in a way most mutually unhindered by the others' thoroughfare. This is the justifiable purpose of government and law (force). But intermingled with the legitimate reasons to use force to protect these rights (of the members of society) are many regulations brought about by greed, fear, superstition, & ignorance. Regulations that impose dominant value systems within a society (and the confiscation of the substance of a person's life for another's private needs or wants under the guise of public necessity) upon it's members for no legitimate public purpose.

check this out: The Venus Project

Hmm... Looks interesting, thanks.

Venus project sucks ass.

^^Sounds like new age communism to me.

To solve resource problems is simple: return to a free market society. As a resource depletes it will become more expensive and people will be forced to look for alternatives. The problem now is that governments constantly try to manipulate the market to protect corporates such as the oil industry. Oil is artificially cheap especially in the U.S. and that is the source of overconsumption. With central banking in control of money and economy the problems of resource overuse is made even worse for reasons which many people (especially politicians) today fail to see but are painfully obvious if you understand how they control money and wealth.

Obviously laws are needed to protect people and their environment from abuse but that has nothing to do with regulating the market place but rather making and enforcing laws to protect people and their property (and the overall environment) from clear abuse.

Furthermore without money (real money not fiat money like we have today) no one could plan businesses and bartering in a complex society for all goods is inefficient and senseless.

The protection of liberty both personal and commercial is the first step towards answering our problems. Governments will never be able to solve our problems through unending complex beaucracy and control over its citizens. Finally by default a true free market is resource based making that websites arguments even more senseless.

Well, I guess I can put that in my pipe and smoke it!!

Well, I guess I can put that in my pipe and smoke it!! Ooops! Got my threads mixed up!

I didn't read the Venus site yet... but it does look interestng, I'm not saying I agree with it, however I agree with the little part I read which said something about "reorganizing society and culture".

Not have nessecarily anything against the market as such, i'm kind of a liberal. But slave trade in africa and asia and the use of slaves as well is something that's fully covered by the mandate of pure economic's. As a matter of fact, many western companies indirectly benefit from the use of slaves in third world countries and the WTO strictly forbids governments in the west to take any action against this. It's even etched in the foundations of the WTO, the GATT treaty, that labour-rights are considered strictly off topic in trade talks.
Like i said, i'm kind of a liberal. I just like to point out that the invisible hand of the market, as envisioned by adam smith, has it's fallacies. The pure desire for more profit doesn't lead to less slavery.
I consider the existence of slavery as one of the most shamefull things of this time.

^^Yes and I don't mean to imply that the invisible hand is the answer to all our problems. I do believe laws need to be in place to protect people from those who abuse to market (such as slavery pollution etc). I just think free people will always make a better world then people who are controlled by beaurocrats and governments and the corporations that infect them.

Coatl we all want to reorganize and make a better society the trouble is many people especially these days think that means more government control over its people. I think the answer is the opposite. So while it sounds nice when anyone sais "lets save the environment and end poverty" and they get the votes etc etc the trouble is the way they go about it is often fundamentally wrong. Thats my opinion anyway but I don't want to derail the thread into a discussion about my economic beliefs

As do I, at heart, I am an anarchist.

A truly free market is a nice idea, but an impossibility when the market is already ruled from within by its own institutionalized governing bodies. Establishing a "free-market" would only relinquish governance of the market to the the corporation. Government regulation is necessary to strip those institutions of their governing power which will in turn liberate the market. Few institutions are as capable of manipulating the market and popular opinion as the corporation, and so we need a central government (which is less capable of or inclined toward such) to monitor and regulate that power.

If simple governmental reform is found unwilling or incapable of this, then revolution is the only answer.

Like the market was ideolized in the 90's by phoney visionaries like francis fukuyama, it is not completely unlikely that government interference is becoming the next thing everybody is going to considder perfectly fantastic.
Many of the same people who told us to leave everything to the market, only a few months ago, have made a 180 degree turn.
It seems as if businessmen as well as politicians tend to think that just throwing 100's of billions of dollars/euro's/pounds/yen's/ whatever around randomly, nationalizing industrys randomly and throwing around some more money will solve all of our current problems.
So, although this is completely off-topic i share some of burnts concerns.

Anyway the wind blows, nothing realy matters...the emptyness of all the hypes of political-correctness, whether dictated by the left or the right, remains.
I don't expect to see entheogens legalized during my lifetime. Like i don't expect to see religious freedom respected everywhere, women having the same rights as men everywhere, homosexuals to respected everywhere, christian, muslims and jews to get along everywhere, etc, during my lifetime.
Too many fools having too much power.
It's sad but true.

Ok, ok... this wasn't supposed to be a polotical or econimical thread, let's move on...

I suppose the point is... something has to be done!

My idea is to create a couple of small closely-nit farming communites based around entheogenic spirituality and the idea that the Earth and her resources belong to all of us, basically my Temple in action!

This can be done on small scales and people should do more things like this. Local movements are key to showing people how it can work at such a level.

I cannot agree more, I think the thing to do is get out there and demonstrate what a decent, workable human society which promotes happiness and health and not money looks like!

A rural commune may be ideal, but this can be done at a smaller scale in an urban setting as well. SWIM was thinking of sort of a clandestine tribal system. This should involve more than use and reverence for entheogens or even for nature. There should be a strong focus on cultural and philosophical awareness and creativity, as this is the only way in which the community will extend and outlive itself. Of course entheogens will serve as a unifying factor and a catalyst, but they must serve as tools of human enhancement.