I've got the spice ready so not gonna do real ayahuasca, but which maoi do you recommend me to take with the spice?

a banisteriopsis caapi brew, or extracted syrian rue harmalas

i wouldn't put aya out of the question just yet personally.. its not the same as smoked dmt and is extremely healing, with or without a dmt containing admixture plant. In many ways, you can learn much more from ayahuasca than you can in a 10 minute smoked dmt trip imo.

that said, the best is smoking changa on aya

Based on my personal experiences with caapi, Syrian rue and Moclobemide as MAOI's, I would recommend caapi above and beyond the other too. Caapi is obviously a very important component of the authentic ayahuasca experience, and I find it much more purifying than the other to, with a great afterglow, it feels much smoother on my system than rue, and is much more grounding and guiding than Moclobemide. It also allows me to purge which can be especially beneficial when things are getting a bit too much with the DMT...I simply can't purge on rue or Moclobemide, and it is great to have that caapi purge safety net. I've yet to smoke changa on aya but it is very high on my 'to do' list!

Orally, a banisteriopsis caapi brew ~60g is my favorite way to dose harmala. It feels smoother and easier to digest on my system then extracted alkaloids for some reason, which make me incredibly uncomfortable. I really wish this wasn't true because b. caapi is so much more expensive, and I rarely get to dose it because of this.

That said, I LOVE to smoke freebase syrian rue extract. Truly wonderful!

Caapi and peganum harmala both. I personally dont find rue any harsher on my system, and I do drink rue brews as well as extracted harmalas. I dont extract caapi becasue it is more $$ and I just like to drink it. I connected with caapi way before rue so it has a special place to me..but I love both of them and both I use often and are important.

Also, very often in the last little while I have been combining caapi brews with a gram or so worths of a rue based brew..I just throw a teaspoon or so of the rue brew into my cup of ayahuasca. Those have hands down been the most powerful nights of ayahuasca I have experienced.

I dont really find rue any less healing than caapi, but they are somewhat different. The differences are minor and someone not aquainted with both might not be able to notice the difference at all. I find though that with rue, the harmaline makes it a stronger maoi so even with a good dose of caapi to compare with, the admixture is stronger with rue..which I dont mind. This also means more vomiting for me-which again I dont mind. Im starting to enjoy the vomit sessions more and more, but for me it has less to do with the rue and more to do with the admix being so active. I will purge jsut as much with caapi if the admix is that active.

I also dont find it harder to purge with rue as some people say.

Some rue harmalas up the nose is nice too.

Bancopuma..have you ever just downed a big glass of water, then stuck your finger down your throat to force the purge when that happens with rue? I have trouble too getting it to come at times with both rue and caapi, one is not easier than the other for me though..but I learned to just drink some water then stick my finger in there to make it happen. I hate not puking when I feel like I should, I just lay there nauseated feeling gross but right after I puke I feel great.

I think this could possibly be down to people using dry capped seeds and extracts from rue, whereas people will usually take caapi in a liquid form.

No liquid = No vomit

^ I think thats it as well. Also the fact that some people brew rue and then just drink it. I NEVER do that. A good brew with rue needs to be filtered well, then left in the fridge for a few days to let all sediments drop out, then decanted. Maybe even decant it 2 times. That will significantly reduce alot of the discomfort people talk about.

The harmaline is more nauseating than the harmine, but that happens at a dose beyond what is needed IMO for practical MAOI. I really like what harmaline adds to the experience though, which is why I like a gram or even half a gram of rue added to ayahuasca sometimes.

I would bet that someday there will be curranderos in SA using rue as an admix in to the caapi.

Are there any general differences between caapi and rue effects(extracts or tea)?
I'm especially interested in the effects of extract taken sublingually.

well sure..caapi contains harmine and THH are main alks, with small ammounts of harmaline and other alks in trace ammounts like 2meoTHBC etc..some caapi has been found to contain almost no THH though and some has had lots of harmaline..

Harmala seeds contain harmine as main alk usually with harmaline as the next highest..sometimes but not often that is reversed. Pinoline is rumored to be present in rue, along with a few others like harmalol etc..

So there are variables with both. In generla though rue is a bit more sedating I find, but very dreamy. Caapi might be a bit more stimulating due to the THH..then again the so called "THH" that was so "LSD like" and people said was more stimulating turned out to be harmine-which everyone was saying was more psychedelic etc than harmine.

This makes me think at times that self suggestion is a factor when people talk about how much more healing caapi is. Both leave me feeling sooo well after..I think it is the harmalas in general that do that. Harmine and harmaline are both amazing. The fact that people thought this "THH" that was really harmine was so different and the wholy grail or something makes me think that self suggestion plays a big role.

I am NOT saying rue and caapi are the same. They most definatily are not. There is differences and many people who are experienced with both will say the same thing. The differences are not that drastic though.

Minxx also did want to use rue for a long time after reading all this bad stuff about it. We drank some one night, from a brew that was carefully prepared-well filtered and decanted 2 times after a few days. She did not find it any more sickening than caapi or any less of an experience. She did say that it gave the mimosa more of an Android Jones sort of vibe though.

well sure..caapi contains harmine and THH are main alks, with small ammounts of harmaline and other alks in trace ammounts like 2meoTHBC etc..some caapi has been found to contain almost no THH though and some has had lots of harmaline..

Harmala seeds contain harmine as main alk usually with harmaline as the next highest..sometimes but not often that is reversed. Pinoline is rumored to be present in rue, along with a few others like harmalol etc..some rue has very little harmaline.

So there are variables with both. In generla though rue is a bit more sedating I find, but very dreamy. Caapi might be a bit more stimulating due to the THH..then again the so called "THH" that was so "LSD like" and people said was more stimulating turned out to be harmine-which everyone was saying was more psychedelic etc than harmine.

This makes me think at times that self suggestion is a factor when people talk about how much more healing caapi is. Both leave me feeling sooo well after..I think it is the harmalas in general that do that. Harmine and harmaline are both amazing. The fact that people thought this "THH" that was really harmine was so different and the wholy grail or something makes me think that self suggestion plays a big role.

I am NOT saying rue and caapi are the same. They most definatily are not. There is differences and many people who are experienced with both will say the same thing. The differences are not that drastic though.

Minxx also did want to use rue for a long time after reading all this bad stuff about it. We drank some one night, from a brew that was carefully prepared-well filtered and decanted 2 times after a few days. She did not find it any more sickening than caapi or any less of an experience. She did say that it gave the mimosa more of an Android Jones sort of vibe though.

I find caapi to be more gentle, but some people find it the other way round. I gues it´s a very personal thing.
To me, caapi makes me feel clear-headed (in a medium dose, just enough for MAO-inhibition) while rue at a low to medium dose already feels like a heavy drug to me with a bit of a stoning, dizzy-making effect.
Everyone has his individual preferences, although most people seem to prefer caapi above rue.

^ rue does have that effect that people call "stoning"..I dont really think it is like being stoned. It is the harmaline though IMO that does that..harmaline is more sedating and rue is def sedating and dreamy. That "stoning" effect can really draw you into some deep dreamuy visions and I enjoy that.

Caapi can do the same thing though, and caapi is also very sedating for me..just not as much as rue.

That stoning dreamy effect..if you take enough caapi for it to be visionary on its own it has all those effects just like rue IMO.

I'm not so sure about that. Last time i took 4 grams of capped ground rue, with holes poked in the side. Trust me, i had NO problem getting it back up. It actually felt pretty forceful. But lent to a great experience still.

** It could just be me being queasy though. I through up semi-easily when I'm on anything.

yeah I don't know where Soulfood is getting the idea that ground harmel doesn't make one purge...

I've had some VERY intense purges with harmel, as a tea AND with ground seeds - finding the ground seeds to cause more of a gut-pain nausea than the harmel tea or even caapi nausea... with harmel tea I actually get very little nausea (when properly filtered/settled/decanted, as jaime said), less than with caapi. But with the ground seeds it's like rocks in my gut. EDIT: the purging with harmel tea is probably due to the jurema....!

My friend once ate 7-11 grams harmel (he wanted to get to know harmel on its own terms) and he was purging violently for the first hour or so, after which he could only lay down or more nausea would hit him (of course, this is clearly due ultimately to the dose of harmine/harmaline and toxic alkaloids...)

But to answer the OP...

Caapi seems superior, tempering the admixture moreso than harmel does, giving the wild visuals a basis on planet earth and connecting the elfin-alienness of the admixture (dmt) to humanity and life on earth.

Harmel, while adding its own narrative/middle-eastern moral twist and experiential "muddiness" or "sloshiness" (not a bad thing, as far as I'm concerned), seems to be less involved than caapi, more just facilitating the DMT - so you get the BIZARRE-ness and alien elfness with less narrative and vision-weaving...

just my impressions, and I will probably retract and/or change some of what I said...!

Are you telling me you purged a dry powder?

I'm merely discussing difference in possibility's in that rue/extract is often capped and swallowed down with a minimal sip of water, whereas a good shot of ayahuasca involves more liquid, hence an easier purge.

I've purged heavily with rue, always capped, but only when I have liquid inside me to act as a carrier for the contents of my stomach. These days I always make sure I drink a fair bit of water during a psychedelic experience.

"of course, this is clearly due ultimately to the dose of harmine/harmaline and toxic alkaloids"

As far as I know there are no toxic alkaloids found in rue at this point. Shulgin speculated that the alkaloids in rue that can cause abortions in real large doses might be toxic, which is where that rumor comes from. They have not been found to actaully be toxic though as of yet in humans and are used as medicines actaully. They would only be toxic to a fetus when taken in ammounts found in like probly 20-30g or more of rue..but for us, even taking like 7 grams there is no indication yet that we need to worry about toxicity.

@jamie:
Oh, sorry, I meant to type it "toxic".

@soulfood:
Well, isn't there most always some amount of liquid in the stomach? How would one go about getting a dry powder down without some kind of liquid lubricant (water, some such) that could hence be purged? Sorry, I wasn't trying to like call you out or anything, and I should have phrased it "nausea" rather than "purge"... because I see your point and with VERY LITTLE liquid in the gut, purging would definitely be harder... however, the nausea, whether or not I can purge it out, seems greatly increased (IME) from just taking the ground seeds.

I hope that I clarified myself...!

..favourite MAOI?..even though i've only had it 3 times at MAOI level, Passiflora incarnata..makes the tryptamine visions more colorful..
i'm growing her and looking forward to getting back with her..
.