No problem, friend. Even if these substances were entitled something else, I probably would still hold the same belief.

just my 2 cents,

mysticism is what brought me here, and I come by it honestly...

"All species possesses adaptive specializations that have enabled
them to survive and reproduce within the habitat that nurtured their
specialization.
Our peacock tail is our inherently mystical nature. It is expressed in
our peculiar capacity to believe implicitly in the patently unbelievable,
and to attribute unnatural power or mystical significance to anything
that either contributes to, or threatens, our genetic survival—thereby
revealing its true origin. Mysticism’s universality and its umbilical links to
DNA’s primal imperatives, ‘survive and reproduce’, clearly identify it as a
genetic artifact.
Whether our mysticism relies on a belief in supernatural forces such as
gods, angels, witchcraft, astrology and intergalactic aliens, or whether
we believe in luck, tea leaves, memes or market forces, the precise
nature of the belief is of little consequence to our genes. The only thing
that matters to them is the quality and strength of the tribal passion that
those beliefs generate. Darwinian selection does the rest. Two million
years of hunter-gatherer hardship has honed human mysticism into a
weapon of unparalleled power—an invincible evolutionary Excalibur"

The Population Debate - regmorrison.edublogs

Science is what keeps me here; I don't have enough time left on this earth to waste it on dogma

Advances In Understanding How Psychedelics Work In The Brain - David Nichols, Ph.D.

Let the quest continue

It is not lacking in most spiritualists. Wich is why, you would notice, this whole debate isn't about spiritualists, but about unreasonable claims by some spiritualists.

Using spirituality as an excuse to be less rigorous in your critical thinking is lame...
And this comes from someone who consider himself a spiritual being first and foremost.

this is pretty relevant methinks

Well, could you show an example of a type of unreasonable claim by some spiritualists? Either way, I'm sure there are grounds to call some scientific claims unreasonable. It's a vicious cycle, and I don't believe critical thinking has anything to do with this conflict, but rather dogmatism on both ends.

easyrider:

I will have to beg to differ, but I do not wish to hang anyone out, so I will not provide you with quotes (if you still want them, we can talk over PM). Critical thinking is certainly involved in the problems debated here. For example, some of our members believe pretty strongly in transcendence or whatever in 2012, reading articles upon articles from new age gurus and other unqualified people. Would you say that buying into this stuff resembles any sort of critical thinking? I will quote from wikipedia;



Do beliefs like the ones I mentioned arise because the people having them are questioning assumptions? Do they try to critically decide what is true or false? I think the answer is quite obvious. Also, dogmas comes into the picture here:



Being dogmatic also shows a lack of critical thinking, so with all respect, I think you're wrong. This is all highly connected to critical thinking, more spesifically the lack of critical thinking, and this is one of the cornerstones of the problems under debate in this thread.

The sad matter is in fact that many on the nexus are clearly showing a lack of critical thinking, as they jump to conclusions and are easily persuaded into believing things that should be greatly doubted unless evidence can be presented. I'm not saying some of these beliefs are wrong per se, but that they should be questioned is very important. Fortunately, I also see many members that keeps a fair amount of distance to a lot things, not wanting to jump to conclusions but rather entertaining ideas and examining them critically (gibran2 comes to mind). This is the kind of attitude I wish to see more in here, and that I think the mods also wish to see more. Because it is certainly not wrong to entertain ideas, contemplate them and discuss them, but being so connected to them that you assume they are true is crossing the line. This often leads to members claiming things without good arguments or references, because it makes so much sense to them (lack of critical thinking much?). This is what we wish to get rid of here, because not only does it look bad from the outside, but it can ultimately in worst case scenarios be dangerous.

PrimateSphinx

This is Brilliant...


Much Peace and Respect

Alright y'all...

In the interest of love and community I will try and reiterate my feeling that:

A) The Mods are not bad people, and I recognize their dilemmas
B) TEKs & clear, practical help for people who come here are the foundation of the Nexus
C) No one should be afraid to have their statements challenged (whatever they might be saying)
D) Nobody is perfect, and making mistakes is human
E) It is possible to be very knowledgeable about something and still be wrong or say something that can be shown to be untrue

Furthermore, (Jbark I'm talking to you)... there is no agenda or insidious plot to do anything here. No one is trying to change anyone's worldviews or make any drastic alterations to the structure here. Let's not get all 'chicken little' about this.

What is happening is that people come here to discuss what they have experienced because they often have nowhere else to do this. Many of these experiences fall outside of science. Science can not prove one way or another whether such recent topics as astral projection, shared dreaming, telepathy, chakra activation, satori experiences, and the seeming reality of entities are true or not... not yet anyway. Given the amount of people who are coming here having had experiences of these sorts, and given the well established trip report record confirming that these are frequent themes for psychonauts... it is inconceivable that we not discuss these things.

So what it comes down to is:

1) Do we allow certain people to come on every esoteric thread and belittle and berate people for sharing?
2) Is it okay to call people crazy (with no scientific proof of this claim, mind you)?
3) Do we really want to be shutting down these conversations that dozens of people are enjoying and engaged in... just because they make certain people uncomfortable?
4) Is it fair to put all such threads under a banner (in a remote corner of our city) that reads (for all intents and purposes) 'fairytales and crazy stories?'

This is the crux of the matter.

I can't speak for every wide-eyed rainbow child of light (a truly wonderful bunch of people btw) who comes here, and I am somewhat tired of being the poster child for pure mysticism as my scientific cred is pretty good. The head of my physics department considered me his best student. (I wasn't, but I came to his office hours and hung out with him a lot outside of class... instead of doing homework. )

All I can say, is I make no claims about absolute truth. I am constantly reminding everyone that I am not trying to convince anyone of anything... and this is the case. I freely admit that my experiences are subjective and I do not attempt to use them to make a case for the objective truth of any phenomenon. A lot of people tend to miss this, and insist that I am trying to make claims or present objective cases for things... which I am certainly not.

That said, I do have a lot of experience with these things. A ridiculously (embarrassingly) huge amount. I don't think it is fair to insist that I act like I can't lucid dream every night without fail... because I can. Do I have to prove that to share my experiences? How would that even be possible on an anonymous forum? I have been to Hyperspace repeatedly and repeatably without any drug or plant to assist me... should I not be allowed to share that with people who are directly asking me about it? I can also astral project... ahem... I have the subjective experience of astral projection, and I have the equally subjective experience of confirming my findings when I return to my body.

Let me just say that if I sound confident of my experiences... it is because I am. For me, there is no question of the validity of my experience, and I don't think it right for me to pretend I find all of this more mysterious and befuddling than I actually do.

Within the context of my Internal Kung Fu background, none of this stuff is unbelievable or unheralded. Dreamwork is a science for us, and one of the higher forms of internal cultivation in our system. Chi Kung leads to Shen Kung leads to Ching Kung and more. These Nei Kung systems includes a ton of things you guys find crazy, but they are provable experiences. They take discipline. It takes decades to master some of this stuff. But masters didn't hand this stuff down from generation to generation for thousands of years just for kicks.

It only takes 8 years to become a Phd in science... okay maybe 20 if you count grade school. It takes 50 years to master a complete system of Kung Fu (which includes acupunture, herbs, energy healing, calligraphy, meditation, chi kung, dreaming, sexual yogic practices... as well as physical cultivation and fighting).

I don't ask that any of you respect the unproven claims of Kung Fu masters (or shaman, or mystics et. al.), but to claim that they are all crazy nutjobs is simply not true. The wisdom of yogis and brujos, kahunas and witch doctors is not off topic here, as far as I am concerned. These are the people who gave us the mushroom, salvia, iboga, ayahuasca, yopo, soma and much much more. These are not people who we should be chasing away.

If you are afraid that the outside world will view psychonauts in a worse light due to mysticism being present here... you don't seem to get how much they already despise you. Even the most scientific of us here are still considered insane criminals by the establishment.

House keeps talking about MAPS. Well, I have been to 4 MAPS conferences. I have partied at Albert Hoffman's 100 and 101st birthday parties at the MAPS conference in Basel. I have met the Shulgins. I was friends with Terrence McKenna for 15 years before he died (spent weeks at his entheogen farm on the Big Island). I have met Rick Strassman, Alex Grey, DM Turner, and the whole crew of heads that stand at the forefront of psychedelic research (soul revealing). I know Rick Doblin. I've raved with Daniel Pinchbeck. I knew Jack Herer and Dennis Peron personally (sleeping over at their houses). I was with them when they debated the virtues of prop 215 (written by Dennis) vs. the CHI (written by Jack). I personally got over 1000 signatures for both initiatives. I know Erich Von Danniken, knew Zechariah Sitchin, did healing gatherings with Jose Arguelles and his wife back in the 80's... I studied with Humbatz Men, have done 2 week peyote fasts in Real de Catorce, have been many times to the Amazon... was doing Ayahuasca before many people in the US knew what it was.

I hate to have to name drop, and state my credentials, but you do yourselves and me a disservice to think that I am a person who talks out his ass. What I have said above only scratches the surface of my involvement in entheogenic (creating G*d within) studies.

My experiences are valid... for me. They are not simply a handful of odd occurrences, but a huge amount of very controlled explorations and experiments conducted by myself and a host of other critically thinking freaks. And, if anyone asks me about them, I have usually been rather forthcoming because the people who find my anecdotes inspiring are usually people who have had similar experiences already, and I am able to give them some advice that might save them some time or heartache... at least they can enjoy the wild tales. Everyone can enjoy a wild tale, actually... no one is forcing anyone to take them seriously.

There is no reason to be afraid of people telling tales that most people shouldn't believe... that is what DMT exploration is all about. Nothing I have said is dangerous or likely to cause anyone harm. Encouraging people to make extractions of an illegal substance with volatile chemicals is far more dangerous to their health and well being than riffing about telepathic experiences. And, make no mistake, we should not stop helping people do safe extractions...

I won't keep responding to everyone here. I have said about as much as one can say on this without writing a book. If someone asks me a specific question (in sincerity not in condescension) I will answer, but I have pretty much done my best for all the people who have goaded me on. I would never have gone this far without many members here asking me to continue to stand up for them.

I will end this lengthy post by giving you my analogy for what we are doing here...

I see psychonauts as explorers and pioneering discoverers of lands unknown. We are like the explorers of old... sailing off in low tech vessels to encounter things undreamed of by our land bound countrymen back home.

The Nexus is like an Explorer's Club circa the early 1500's. The New World is still fabulously new, and many laymen still doubt that the world is even round. We, who have been to the New World... meet to drink (SHE) and share tales.

One explorer who has been to the Caribbean might find another who has been to the Pacific Coast and sailed around Tierra Del Fuego to be fanciful and unbelievable. Icebergs and the Southern Lights? Ppfh. Reports of giant redwood Sequoias would be laughed at. Many would marvel at tales of the size of some of the Aztec cities (bigger than London? nay...). Of course, some fantastic stories would prove true, and some would remain fantasy (El Dorado, Paititi, La Canela, Cibola, the Fountain of Youth etc.). But, given the extent of the ruins we have found, and continue to find... who is to say that one of those lost cities of gold won't be found as well?

Peace and blessings fellow pathfinders... I love you all from the bottom of my heart.

HF

HyperspaceFool,

Going on a side tangent here, why do you say telepathy or astral projection cant be studied? If you can telepathically send or receive specific messages from someone, it's a simple case of having independent observers who would give a message to one of the telepathic people, and the other would have to write it down the message they telepathically receive. This could be done a handful of times to see if it passes statistical significance. Same with astral projection, if you can literally step out of your body and observe things elsewhere in the physical world, then a message or object or whatever could be put in another room, and the astral projecting person would have to say what it is. Again, this can be repeated a handful of times. These are as easy scientific tests are they get, no costs at all.

You would change the world as we know it, you can call randy foundation and get a million bucks and donate it to entheogenic research or starving people around the world. Why dont you? I dont mean this at all condescending, by the way, Im honestly asking....

You will note that is not what I said. I said that people's experiences of telepathy (etc.) fall outside of the ability of science to explain or prove one way or another... as of yet. Studies could surely be done, but they have some serious obstacles to overcome. I have talked about this before. The first and most important hurdle, being to convince someone who can do these things to be a lab rat. Designing tests is a cinch.

To get the Rand money, you have to meet criterion that are next to impossible to achieve, but I think that in time, someone with nerves of steel will, in fact, claim that dough.

As for proving ourselves here...anonymous posters on a site such as this can not prove anything to other anonymous posters, so the frequent calls for such to be done are red herrings.

I for one, could care less if anyone believes me, have no interest in being the Uri Geller of astral projection, and don't see that establishing esoteric practices as scientific truths is any kind of priority for myself or for human kind. The reason I do the things I do with my time and not other things, is because I find that the things I am doing are more valuable to myself and society at large. If I was bored and had nothing better to do... perhaps I might consider organizing a study, but the idea of joining a study conducted by skeptics and held in their sterile lab environments according to their rules... seems even more boring than staring at a wall.

After all, I have nothing to gain. I can already do these things, and the benefit of being able to do something that others don't even believe is possible... is significant. I already profit from my abilities.

These are things that skeptics can test for themselves. They don't need me. Most books on AP give decent enough info to get you started. It isn't so difficult to achieve sleep paralysis if you keep at it. And, exit techniques are not all that complicated... pretty straightforward really. If you wanna prove AP, have at it.

There are even books here on the NEXUS for download that could help you. In fact, the number of esoteric and spiritual books on the FILES section is bewilderingly large (outnumbering the science books by 10 to 1) for a site that claims to be so steadfastly materialist. LaBerge's Lucid Dreaming Tome rubs shoulders with the famous AP books by Monroe: https://www.dmt-nexus.me...f%20Lucid%20Dreaming.pdf & https://www.dmt-nexus.me...urneys-ROBERT_MONROE.pdf

There are crystal gazing books, Qabbalah tomes, books about astral energies... even books by Aleister Crowley.

I find it hard to believe that a site which puts such books up for download has a problem with someone coming here and saying that they have had some of these experiences.

Just saying.

I think you are going back to an earlier discussion I thought we had already overcome? You are going back to trying to prove for some reaosn that the Nexus is less scientific than "alternative", but:

a) I dont see the point because this isnt leading to anything practical except that you're venting something you have already over and over in this and enough other threads?
b) You are missing the point that this is Traveler's website and regardless of the crystal gazing papers in an off-forum section, he wants the forum to follow a certain way, thats how its going to be.
c) The files section doesnt really represent the Nexus community, it has been there from an earlier time and its a section that has been forgotten and hasnt been updated in long. If you think your ratio argument is valid, then start counting the amount of scientific papers attached to posts (for example the scientific articles sticky in the information subforum)
d) The problem has never been about someone sharing an experience they had, but in how its done, when its shared as an unquestionable truth (im not gonna repeat this anymore, I think you must have understood it already)

By the way, I have plenty of experience with lucid dreams, I have had sleep paralysis and have "Astral Projected" following it. You know what was my conclusion from my own experience? That I wasnt actually leaving my body, that I was actually dreaming that I was. I had this conclusion because certain objects were not how they were in real life after I woke up. I dont know if this is the case for everybody or even for me if I keep trying it a trillion more times, but i think it indicated to me that at least in some cases it can be a misinterpretation, an illusion, a dream. So I naturally question: Ok, so is this particular time also an illusion, or is this real? How can I test it? I think its healthy to question for myself, and I would love to do some more experiments with people who claim to do really do it, for the sake of truth. It's not a matter of being a materialist, its a matter of critical thinking.

As for your view on randy foundation and scientists, well thats too bad you feel this way, that you can reap your benefits and that its not worth it to change the world with some very simple tests. I understand that it would attract a lot of attention if it was actually true, but hey, if its for the good of mankind, maybe its worth it..... But its your life, so you can decide for your own.

And for proving to other posters, of course you cant prove by writting words on a forum, but at the same time you must understand if people dont take your or other person's words at face and question it. And thats how its gonna keep being, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence (or at the very least will lead to plenty of questioning or natural skepticism).

I´ve had plenty of those experiences as well. But fact is that i know my brain is perfectly capable of producing these kind of experiences without there actually being a god, elves, etc.

This is in my view the essence of the whole problem: Substances like DMT are capable of making you experience things. Not only can they make you experience things, they can also mess with the parameters of what constitutes 'experience'...how often have i heard people describe DMT-experiences as 'hyperreal'.

So not only can a substance like DMT make you experience things, it can also give you the sense of it being 'more real than real'.

In other words...experiencing something of wich the beauty of it, the extraordinary, overwhelming nature of it, it´s hyperrealness, makes it all appear larger than life is exactly what we all KNOW DMT is capable of. It´s even almost the essence of what it does, while we all know that this is caused by triggering receptors, rather than chakra´s (including the pineal gland). The brain is more than capable of fooling itself in many ways.

When your brain is fooling itself, part of being fooled is the belief that something must be real, that it can´t be an illusion.

In other words...experiencing something, no matter how extraordinary, and realy feeling, sensing, almost..knowing..that it must be real, can never proof that your brains are NOT fooling you at all.

The brain can be fooled into making you believe that you have an extra limb, an extra arm or leg.
So it´s not just things of wich you just can´t proof that they´re not real, the brain is even capable of creating perfect illusions of things that are with great and absolute certainty NOT real at all.
That´s a fact that cannot be disputed.

And it´s that simple fact, that makes any claim of realness an absurd claim.

There´s nothing silly about questioning consensus-reality. Claiming to know things that lie way beyond what can be tested and verified, with only your own personal experience as basis is silly though.
And it´s silly because you´re ignoring facts that cán be tested and verified...like: triggering the brain in numerous ways can make you see and experience weird things, that are absolutely not real.

I locked this thread for the moment.

I like to point people at this announcement: [IMPORTANT] New policy!

After people have read that announcement I will reopen this thread and then we can hopefully have a healthy debate again with the content of that given announcement in the back of our minds.


Kind regards,

The Traveler