"Iboga & Amanita Muscaria are the two closest approximations"

Really? I have heard everything from amanitas doing nothing to doing everything..I have read muscimol is a dissociative though so that makes sense..I found tons of them this fall but never picked them other than to print and ID them then threw them back outside..maybe I should have kept some..

I cant imagine anything really going deeper than a solid dose of harmalas and DMT..harmalas have strong enough NMDA antagonism by themselves and the DMT just brings all the alien light into the space..

I still need to try ibogaine, and it is next on my list. I cant imagine DXM being deeper than salvinorin though, but I know you dont like salvinorin Hypersapce fool..it is really interesting to quid a light dose of leaves after drinking a cup of ayahuasca...

right, salvia divinorum is also a dissociative. And ill also say that quidding salvia is a much more pleasant experience then smoking the extract. quid ftw

Fractal, err jamie, I know what he means trying to express that DXM can be deep, at least i can only vouch for this because of my experiences with DXM, AND DMT. You cannot compare these things to traditional psychedelics, all I am saying is ive had an experience with this combination that ill NEVER forget.

Yeah.

High doses of Iboga (or Voacanga for that matter) do have many things in common with high level DXM journeys. Amanitas, though unpredictable, can also be quite similar. There is a reason it is known as the flying mushroom. Just be really careful with all of the dissos... have respect.

Just because you can't remember what happened, doesn't mean that the substance didn't take you for a joy ride. It takes a lot of focus and practice to remember disso journeys in full. It is really a lot like dreaming, only with painless ego death thrown in for free.

The sensations of becoming one with the Universe are very profound.

Salvia is surely quite dissociatve, and Frac... er, Jamie is correct in saying it is not my favorite substance. This is primarily due to the types of entities SWIM met with it... every time. That said, though, SWIM found that quidding was always fun and often useful, especially for identifying other plants and their uses. Salvia never showed its teeth until the extractions became quite concentrated.

Jamie also correctly mentioned that MAOIs can also be quite dissociative.

Actually, I think strict adherence to terminology is missing the point. One could define dissos as anything that works on the NMDA uptakes. But this is a bit narrow and somewhat inaccurate IME. The most dissociative experiences tend to arise from the sigma sites as far as I can tell. Furthermore, I think we should weight the subjective experience heavier than the apparent action neurochemically speaking.

From a strictly experiential perspective, I find that DMT is highly dissociative. Yes. After all, it is one of the most effective inducers of OOBE's and transpersonal phenomena.

I think that the words psychedelic, entheogen, dissociative etc. describe effects and types of experiences rather than being only specific to a set of neurochemical reactions. Substances can deliver any or all of these 3 effects whether or not they are known for that.

If your soul gets revealed, you go on a tripy, and find that your perceptions of this world are enhanced and more colorful... you have had a psychedelic experience. Regardless of what you took (or didn't take) to get there. If the feeling of divinity arises within you, encounter entities, and journey to hyper dimensional realms... you can say that you have had the entheogenic experience. And, if you become detached from your normal waking life self, melt into oneness with the Universe, and see vivid other worldly visions in the dark... you have been dissociated. I believe you can have any, all, or none of these experience on any number of substances... regardless of how people classify them.

As a final note... SWIM had found that MXE was inferior to DXM in its depth and splendor. A recent experience with it may have changed his mind. Not sure whether it was a cumulative effect (as that stuff has an endless afterglow of many many days), the amount used (somewhat higher than in the past), or the specific admixture. SWIM used minor sublingual harmaline extract along with .3 mg of melatonin to potentiate. Probably all of the above. NOTE: be careful and do not jump into potentiation without being really familiar with a substance. RIMAs with melatonin and psychs or dissos could conceivably induce serotonin neuro toxicity (the famous serotonin syndrome). SWIM did not take enough harmalas to turn off MAO, but just enough to boost the effects.

About a cigarette's worth of pure tobacco was consumed just before the peak and that really kicked things into high gear. And the experience was situated in a pitch dark, very warm bath. Often SWIM had forgotten to use this DXM protocol with MXE because MXE is less light-phobic and it is clear enough to function relatively normally even at somewhat high doses. Thus, many hours of MXE tripping were wasted staring at a computer screen or being euphoric in candle lit rooms. If you wanna journey with dissos... you need to be in darkness.

Perhaps I will make a genuine trip report at some point. Let's just say that the experience was AMAZING beyond words. It actually surpassed the couple spice vapes SWIM did on the way down... and that is saying something. It was the most liberating and freeing experience. Like lucid dreaming mixed with ayahuasca and DXM. Utterly clear headed, guided by friendly entities... and completely maleable. Astonishingly so. MXE just moved up a couple notches in SWIM's already high estimations.

Be very carefull with amanita´s. The strength can vary dramatically in each individual mushroom. Some contain 20 times as much actives as others.

I find dissociatives generally less interesting than psychedelic´s because the level of awareness, wakefullness...the degree in wich you realy counsciously experience these altered states is just so much higher with psychedelic´s. Most disso´s are in the end, sedatives and anaestetic´s. Shutting your mind down.

Ibogaine and it´s derivate´s are an exception though, because they are both a dissociative and psychedelic substance and thus compensating the mental sedation with psychedelic stimulation.

But even on ibogaine, you are definately not as aware as you are on DMT.

If people have had good experiences with DXM, it could be that this had more to do with set-and-setting than with the substance.

^ this is why I highly suggest combining tryptamines with dissociatives.

"Most disso´s are in the end, sedatives and anaestetic´s. Shutting your mind down."

Or just shutting down parts of the mind that are more left brain oriented. There is some evidence that the right brain does not need sleep the way the left brain does..the left brain will run down in periods of sleep deprivation, whereas the right brain will remain fully active..people that are days into sleep deprivation experiments have been known to actaully perform certain tasts like balance for instance surprisingly BETTER than they could before, all the while constantly thinking in rhymes..this is thought to be due to the right brain being able to take over once the left brain is run down enough...

The left brain needs sleep..it shuts off at night when we sleep to regenerate and we go deep into right brain activity-dreams..

I think dissociatives probabily sedate the body and shut down the left brain and we enter in a state that is similar to dreaming..this is how it feels with caapi for instance..I get tired and sedated..I feel a calm medative well being come over me and then I drift into these dreamlike sequences that seem removed from this world and happen in another place. The visions that come from harmalas happen in a very dissociated state IMO. The fact that they work on NMDA receptors and are not seratonergic psychedelics like DMT,LSD,mescaline etc just supports the theory..

I have never had DXM but I dont see why it should be that different. If there is some kind of phenomenon taking place, especially mystical unions and otherworldy travel I dont think we can really assume the mind is shutting down completely.

IMO and IME no I do not consider it a legitimate psychedelic. It works great for a bad cough though.

I have quite a bit of experience with this drug, in fact it was the first drug I ever used, period(aside from caffeine and medicine), definitely the first I took recreationally.
I agree with people who say it can cause profound, out of body experiences(my first OBE was with DXM). I also think it shouldn't be considered childish, the higher plateau trips are definitely different from the recreational low plateau trips which are more common among those who take it for the wrong reasons.

However, I have to agree with other posters who say its not a psychedelic. It isn't, it is a hallucinogen, but the effects are only mildly similar to psychedelics, in fact the only relation I can make is some of the close-eyed visuals and color patterns are similar, but not as well defined as a psychedelic trip.

It should be regarded as a tool for spiritual development just like DMT, but it is definetly not on the same level as true psychedelics.

jamie, you may really well like amanitas muscaria and pantherina. I found that when used as admixtures, they present themselves as very ancient knowledge holder, a bit the feeling you have also with rue though their language is different.

With the dissociative anesthetics, there are lots of variables that determine how "legit" it is.
Prime of which is intention. The use of these anesthetics is a lesson in the importance of intention.
With the "normal" hallucinogens, one can derive some illumination- even if transient - whether or not that was your intention.
But with the dissociatives,
if you don't go into with that certain mindset,
you don't get shit.

I've used dextromethorphan over 1000 times. I have had wonderful, emotionally brilliant and simplest most enduring experience. When it's good, it's exquisite. But, that's probably 20 or so absolutely glowing experiences out of 1000+. Mostly DXM seems to be a test of ones resistance to nihilism and endless existential loops.

Sustained use at high dosage tends to make most people go a little insane. At least egotistical and neurotically depressed. I seem to be more susceptible to drug-induced psychiatric issues, and with heavy DXM use I tend to at least extreme mania if not outright NMDA-antagonist-induced psychosis.


Sometimes I still take first-plateau doses when I'm sick. Perhaps once or twice in a year I will have a nostalgia for DXM and take a 3rd plateau journey into my hippocampus. Even like that it doesn't always please.


DMT is MUCH MORE BIZARRE while being MUCH MORE POSITIVE/INFORMATIVE.
DXM does in fact seem pale and one-dimensional compared to the serotonergic psychedelics. Bland, even.
There's no independent intelligence,
just a new hotel.
All the lights work, there's water in the faucets,
but nobodies home - as T. McKenna said of ketamine.

But, I have had those two handfuls of overwhelming beauty and unity with the stuff, so something's there. Even if it is only acting as a mirror for the soul, that is a fine tool to have at your disposal.

Just tell them to stop using poison cough medicine (coricidin) and extract the junk. separating the DXM from the chlorphreniramine is as simple as adding H2O!

Harmala´s are realy a different class of substance. They are much more than just NMDA-antagonists.

is there a link that could be posted pertaining to the harmala alkaloids being NMDA-antagonists? All I could really find is that harmaline seems to displace MK-801, the NMDA-antagonist usually used in experimental laboratory settings...

It is hard to find a report that states outright that harmaline/harmine are NMDA antagonists. From what I understand they act as inverse agonists at the NMDA site, which means they do have NMDA antagonism in it's action. There seems to be more research available in this area in reguards to ibogaine, which clearly has a very close structural resemblance to the beta carbolines and harmalaine..and we all know that ibogaine is a well known NMDA antagonist..it is no surprise that the 2 hit many of the same receptor sites and in first hand subjective bio-assay reports many similarities are noted between the two molecules.

Talk to someone like benzyme on the topic, or a few others here..hopefully they can chime in becasue they will have a far greater grasp here on what is going on than I do.

I think a lot of people are comparing apples to walnuts here... Or perhaps shampoo to drain cleaner.

The classic psychs are a bit like washing your hair. They create very personal and sensual experiences of cleansing your mind stuff. They deal very much with the issues of your egoic mind in this world.

Dissos, on the other hand, are like boundary solvents. Draino for the soul. They tend to come up against more primal barriers in the mind and dissolve them on the sly. Often their most profound workings are not obvious to people looking for the external floridness of LSD or what have you. (plus they only shine in the pitch darkness) But when dissos have done their job, and these primal walls actually come down, the sense of expansion and reconnection that they can give can be truly colossal.

DXM and its brethren can dissolve the boundaries between your consciousness and the universal mind. They can take you from "little s" self to boundless "big S" Self in mere moments. They can open the bird cage and get your spirit out flying in the cosmos.

They do not deal with subconscious neuroses. They don't evoke synesthesia, trails, sensory warping or breathing walls. In fact, dissos don't really deal much with your waking life "egoic" reality at all. They take you completely out of this mundane sphere and toss you into empyrean seas of super human subject matter. In this way, dissos are actually more entheogenic, IMO than the traditional psychs. Dissos can, like DMT and the other great entheogens... completely remove you from your familiar life and show you something truly alien... yet all too familiar.

If the insights people are looking for are merely about their limited material lives and their emotions or what not, then LSD or shrooms would be FAR more insightful. But if the insights you are looking for are astral or causal... spiritual and supernatural... dissos can take you further down the rabbit hole than classic psychs and can even approach the level of heavy ayahuasca journeys.

And if you are seeking to touch the void... explore and cultivate emptiness... transcend egoic emotion, and experience being TRULY vast... dissos stand alone.

So again, it really depends on what you are looking for. Psychs amplify, distort and fractalize your experience of THIS world. Dissos dissolve the left brained dominance and let your right brain guide you into limitless realms, parallel universes, alternate timelines, and truly alien consciousnesses. That is if you take enough of them, anyway.

SWIM doesn't bother with low doses of dissos though unless using them to supplement other substances... and even then, moar is usually better.

Also, Swim finds that dissos and psychs go awfully good together. Like Reeses Peanut Butter Cups...

And if you're really wanting to break on through while assimilating the entire thing forwards and backwards from upper dimensional scenic view points... throw some spice on top of that.

Any way, different strokes... right? Perhaps we all experience these things differently.

^^^^
I used to believe almost exactly this, but now think almost the opposite. DXM, MXE, and N20, in any combination with eachother, have NEVER given me the otherworldly jittering spiritual panorama like the indole hallucinogens.

The dissociative anesthetics CAN take you somewhere that I find to be less present with the indoles, and that is the personal insight/insight into human and nonhuman relationships....
but different strokes indeed

Also, there is no comparison between the vast emptiness of these anesthetics and the vast, churning and multitudinous deep of a total breakthrough into the space elicited by DMT.

Dissociatives send one reeling inward,
the observing mind - cut off from the sensory matrix -,
sails through its own magnificent vistas;
jeweled caves there are indeed within the mind of man.

(but how egoic an experience THAT is!)
there is a reason for the near-ubiquitous narcissism, egomania and delusions of grandeur present in NMDA-antagonist addicts

well said sir.
Very well said.

This egoic experience, is what I truly love about dissociatives. Although care has to be taken not to get lost in your own delusions of grandeur.. ,

An even greater egoic experience, I will stress once again... DMT + Dissociatives!

Some people claim to have great experiences with this stuff. But everybody is different. Maybe some people just respond better to it than others.

On the other hand...with the right set and setting you can have mindblowing experiences with even the most shitty substances available. I have had a few REALY mindblowing experiences with oral cannabis...probably just because of what i was going through at the time.

Even in a muddy pool, you can see heaven reflected...if the wheater is right.

^^^^^^

Oral cannabis can be QUITE psychedelic, IMO. It just takes a little focus (and perhaps caffeine) to not make it simply somniferous. And why would you say "most shitty substances available" and then mention oral cannabis? I'm just confused, I've always thought that, when taken orally, cannabis' visionary aspects come to the fore...


The only time I tried mixing dissociatives and psychedelics was a single experiment with San Pedro and Nitrous oxide... there was 30 seconds of definite synergism, a distinct metallic-seeming and brightly colored 3-dimensional fleur-de-lis appeared behind my eyelids; this was immediately followed by a splitting headache that ruined the next 5 or so hours of the cactus... however, I tend to get headaches from nitrous (don't even bother with it anymore...), and they really clashed spirits, anyway. An inert gas with a living plant, sheesh, what was I thinking?

I can see, however, how a low-moderate dose of a dissociative (preferably a shorter-acting one, like ketamine) could be nice on the tail-end of a long, draining psychedelic experience. DXM is a little unpredictable, however, with a more complicated pharmacology, and of course is totally dangerous/potentially deadly to mix with MAO inhibitors! But you guys knew that already, huh!