Recently I was on a 3-day Zen retreat. (A silent retreat.) I am a Buddhist practitioner
in both Zen and Tibetan traditions. Although I treat it seriously on the heart level, I'm not
as devote in my practice as I could be.

On the altar in the meditation hall in our retreat space, there's a sublimely
beautiful wooden statue of the Buddha. He is seated on a lotus flower, deep in Samadhi.
(Very deep, concentrated, trancendental meditation.) And behind him is carved the most
amazing cosmology of Boddhisattva's and entities, emerging from an elaborate matrix of abstraction.

And then it hit me like a thunderbolt. If you took this statue to a shaman from the Amazon or
Mesoamerica or Australia, etc., I think they would immediately recognize what was going on here.
And that's, as Mckenna liked to call it, a rupture of the the mundane plane. An entrance into the hyper-landscape:
hyper-spatial, hyper-temporal, hyper-dimensionable, trans-linguistic. It reminded me
also of representations I've seen of the meso-american god of plant ecstasy, Xochipilli.

During these experiences, the dualistic, linear thinking monkey-brain has been flipped OPEN.
Buddhism and psychedelics both seem to point to this experience of going beyond.
The statue and in particular, the vision behind the statue, reminded me of my own DMT visions.
Looking at that statue made me wonder about the shamanistic origins of all religions.
Maybe something got left out...or went underground at some point?

When it came time for an interview with the monk leading the retreat, I couldn't think of
any other question to ask him other than, Are you familiar with DMT?
So, I used the time to go out for walking meditation in the woods instead.

Sometimes I wonder about the apparent disconnection between
Buddhism and psychedelics. Teachers aren't publicly encouraging
of the experience, although who knows what happens behind the scenes.

One of my resistances to the Buddhist path has been that I've felt teachers
were telling us to ignore these kinds of impulses and passions. We had to let
go of those things...and grow up. Teacher's tell us very specifically, do not seek out
mystical experiences. But for me, as an artist and a human being, the impulse towards
magic and mystery have always been part of my nature. I probably wouldn't be on
the Dharma path without those tendencies.

DMT and psychedelics are fascinating subjects for me and have been for
many years. There's a lure. I'm drawn towards them like a siren song.
I feel there is a karmic element involved. A sense of familiarity.
That could be a mere projection of my ego, but what do I really know? :-)

I'd be very appreciative to hear other people's thoughts on DMT and
how it relates to Buddhist or other meditative experiences. Thank you.

I wanted to add from Wikipedia, R. Gordon Wasson's description of Xochipilli
representations --

Wasson says "He is absorbed in temicxoch, 'the flowery dream', as the Nahua say in describing the awesome experience that follows the ingestion of Sinicuichi (Heimia salicifolia). I can think of nothing like it in the long and rich history of European art: Xochipilli absorbed in temicxoch" of the statue of Xochipilli.[3]

You raise a very important and fascinating topic. I expect some folks will give you overconfident answers. If so, perhaps ignore them. You are wrestling with a subtle and deep question. Me too. I seek profound experience and yet I seek THAT which lies beyond both profound and non-profound experience. This is one expression of my confusion.

eH

I think you'll like this then;

The Psychedelic Experience - A manual based on the Tibetan Book of the Dead

By Timothy Leary, Ph.D., Ralph Metzner, Ph.D., & Richard Alpert, Ph.D.

Answers many of my questions.

very interesting thread, thanks for sharing.

wish i could give you an enlightening response.

it is pretty wondrous how especially this religion but also many others completely deny this avenue, how did shamanism get so redundant within these religions, and especially buddhism, which i dont even classify as a religion, to me it is above religion, it's like somewhere in between undefined spiritualism and religion, it's more of a spiritual guideline, rulebook, rather than a god is law, religion, you are allowed to break the rules, you are allowed to be open minded, yet still there is no shamanism, it is mind baffling, perhaps this was a conscious decision to evade persecution, so they could remain a prominent and accepted form of spiritualism throughout modern times, perhaps they foresaw that one day they would once again be reunited with shamanism, who knows... baffling.

As I understand it psychedelics were used in the inception of these religions. In some yoga scripts there are mentions of it.

Feels a bit obvious that at least the states are more or less identical when you walk around in a temple that is more trippy than any well decorated goa party

Unfortunately I don't remember where I read it but somewhere it was claimed that these herbs are still used in the Himalayas, but very few disciples are seen as suitable for such a spiritual kick-start so it is a well kept secret. Bit different approach from that of Mr Leary.

In my opinion non-psychedelic spiritual work is a very worthwhile complement to the psychedelics, helping a great deal with integration and sort of filling the big blank between normal consciousness and psychedelic states. Actually anything you can add to your life that will raise you or towards or even remind you of oneness is very worthwhile.

Another surprising (or not so surprising?) thing I don't remember the source for is that 10% of Buddhist monks in Thailand supposedly seek treatment for drug abuse.

Thanks for these recommendations! I will check them out.

There's also quite a bit on Erowid which I look forward to exploring,
http://www.erowid.org/spirit/traditions/buddhism/

I appreciate this and relate.

I think there's a point in these things where the language starts to fall off --
something trans-linguistic, outside of language, or Un-Englishable as Mckenna liked to say.

In Buddhist experience and I think possible in psychedelic experience, there is
a non-discriminating aspect which sees ALL experience as profound. It's
the discriminating mind, darting back and forth, seeking solidity that trip us up
to the luminous, beauty that's right there, natural, effortless.

I know mine is quite adept at the tripping up part! :-)

Thanks. I don't know the answers to any of the interesting questions you raise.
I also wonder if there were psychedelic roots to our world religions.
We know about the Hindu Vedic inspiration with Soma. And of course there
has been cannabis/hashish use by some sects of Muslims/Sufi's as well as Yogi's
in India. So it's not SO far from the surface. However, from the little
bit I know, it's very speculative in terms of Buddhism and Christianity.
Judaism, sure seems like a psychedelic cult to me. (With the manna, and
the weird/beautiful kabbalistic stuff, and all that) And there are those
scholars who believe these things, but they seem to be in the minority.

About whether Buddhism is a religion or not, I think it's a very personal
thing and it depends who you ask. Buddhist teachings create a perfectly good
body of secular philosophy. But practicing Buddhism, for a Buddhist,
involves a 'heart' element, as strong as the intellectual side. It's a direct,
emotional engagement which creates the full experience. For those people, and
I think I'm one who aspires to that, it leaves the realm of philosophy and
becomes what most people would call religion. I don't think the idea of what
constitutes a religion necessarily needs to follow the theistic model
of worship.

Mckenna was real influenced by Riane Eisler's book, The Chalice and the Blade.
And if you haven't read it, she says that if you look at human culture and religions
according to the archaeological record prior to the bronze age, the gods turn to
goddesses, the priests turn to priestess, there's a more egalitarian,
partnership based society, etc. So as far as I know, this is pretty
fringe, revisionist history, but real interesting, I think.

The main takeaway for me is that human, cultural history is a MUCH longer
arc than just since the Romans or even since Judaic Biblical times. We've been
creating STUFF (tools, art, concepts, etc.) for around 50,000 years. What we just
take for, 'how things are', hasn't necessarily always been the way. We have
a short memory for history, and shamanism in particular seems to
be one of those (almost) forgotten tings. But of course, we know that's
not true, and it's only gone underground since the Bronze age.
And now here it is, emerging again, and things seem to be getting pretty weird.
So, I appreciate that.

A couple of relevant images --

Xochipilli



A statue of the Buddha in meditation

To your question i cannot really give you a straight answer for i do not know.
But i can say, I believe DMT is what religion strive to get to.

When i meditate for long periods i can shift my consciousness and make the same visuals appear as if i was on DMT (although not as intense).
I believe these substances are tools to heighten your inner vibration when used for the correct purpose.

I have read many ancient Buddhism/Tebetin texts mentioning the use of Psycho-actives to induce spiritual states.
I have learnt that marijuana, Datura are used to bring on 'Kundilini" you inner spiritual energy, I have used this process myself.
It worked, but it was highly forced and in predictable which cause alot of discomfort and physical pain to surface.
I struggled in this state for almost 2 years before my kundilini awakening finally completed.
I am now more spiritual than ever before.

So yes i do believe their is a link between Buddhism/Spirituality and DMT/psycho-actives.

Thanks, I really appreciate your experiential input. I'd love to know which Buddhist texts you've read that mention psychoactives. That sounds very interesting.

I've had a good amount of experience being around monastics and I can't imagine anyone more qualified to investigate these states of mind. I wish Terence was more forthcoming with details about his experience giving DMT to some 'high Lama'. The quote he did repeat from the Lama:

"This is the lesser lights, the lesser lights of the Bardo. You cannot go further into the Bardo and return. This takes you as far as you can go."

Exactly what (kind of) herbs are you talking about? (and don't just say psychedelic ones)

Same same but different

The psychedelic experience is to be treated as all other experiences in Buddhism. It is impermanent, unsatisfactory, and not you.

In fact psychedelics are an amazing way to practice insight meditation...on occasion. In fact it's perfect for it...on occasion. You have images and sensations rising and passing away at very rapid speed. Try and be aware of every single image or sensation you have while on psychedelics without being averse to the bad images/sensations and without grasping for the ecstatic images/sensations.

At the end of the day you have to realize the glaringly obvious fact: It's just an illusion as all other things are. The DMT experience can offer one a fleeting glimpse of the highest state of Samadhi, but in the end this experience is just like all other experiences. It is impermanent, unsatisfactory, and its not you.

I meditate and I use psychedelics, but without a doubt I'm certain that at some point my progress will not proceed if I don't give up psychedelics.

Remember the goal in Buddhism is to literally be here now. To be completely and total equal with life exactly as it is. Not to grasp for things to be better and not to lament how bad things are. Drugs by nature are not being here now. We chose to alter our state in hopes that it would be better or different than our current situation....


Peace

As Brother joedirt beautifully expressed, Buddhism is about releasing all desire and our habitual need to grasp at conceptual formats. I think that while this ideal is most sublime and true... it is necessary to view this ideal in the context of the original Buddha's paradigm. It is a way of life, a continuum of attention, which we train our awareness to center upon (as I suspect you well know and it the motivation for this provocative thread).

Ecstasy, spiritual visions and waves of beatific euphoria are wonderful releases for the sentient entity to experience (as a dramatic counterpoint of ordinary human perceptual dynamics) but not the ultimate fruit of Buddhi.

To awaken from the dream of bondage requires abandonment of personal preference and expectation. In the stillness of the insubstantial, formless emptiness... even the rainbow-colored fractal mandalas of infinitely creative expressions (of the light within all lights), are eventual barriers to our awakening as the core center of The Omniself. In emptiness is fullness. As you have gleaned, when thought becomes absolute stillness, the end result is No mind.

Agreed, the states of mind experienced within the fulcrum of the psychedelic experience are as boundless and unique as the people who manifest them through their consciousness. Within the approach of the 21st century psychonaut, into the shimmering force of The Clear Light of the Void, the witness is ever challenged to release all thought-forms and conceptual frameworks.

Yes, the seeker must even train the mind to release the pursuit of the exalted, heavenly plane of Nirvana, the bliss of Samadhi/Satori/Divine Rapture. For the Great Void calls us endlessly and challenges us to cease our perceptual and intellectual projections about life and existence... death and non-existence. Awareness is neither born, nor does it die. It simply exists. :idea:



Exactly, and welcome to the difficult road of treading the dividing line between sanity and sheer paradox. We are drawn into the vacuum of this force and the ramifications of intent and the byproduct of contemplation... AWARENESS. From my own small experience in such a balancing act, I would suggest that you continue to maintain your spiritual practice, as your perpetual core-center and foundation.

Still, you and only you can decide what is right for your own soul's growth and evolution. Never blindly follow the dictates of dogma, unless of course it is your chosen way, in preference for spontaneous enlightenment. It is no small wonder that we join together to discuss this crossroad in our spiritual journey. Be here now... and be free to choose your next step on this endless path of awakening (and re-awakening).

If you choose to expand your field of perception with the aid of Sacred Medicines, that's just fine. If not, that's also a fine path. At it's very central fulcrum, consciousness is Indivisible and whatever path that you take will arrive at this lofty summit. There is but one current, one light and one being. Duality is a mirage we share with the organic universe. Frankly, all paths lead towards this singularity of being, this unified and most quintessential of truths.

As time is one of the trickiest of earthly illusions, we needn't fixate on any rational sequential processes. Returning our focus to the present is as rhythmic and absorbing as breathing and the beating of our hearts. It is, however, not an involuntary action, it is the art of mindfulness

Entheogens are great teachers and lead us through all the mazes of thought, only to take our very self away from us and leave us essentially naked and startlingly, reborn in the present moment. The now is all there is. How can these two paths be in any serious conflict?

Perhaps only your soul-searching will decide the definition for you. I do reiterate joedirt's emphasis on the use of entheogens as measured, ritual usage. The frivolous and habitual imbibing of these Sacred Medicines is both, indulgent and potentially dangerous for the seeker of higher truths. "All things in good measure."

I don’t understand these statements. It seems to me that “being here now” means just what it says. If one can “be here now” while experiencing the “normal” neuro-chemical state, then why can’t one be here now while experiencing an altered neuro-chemical state.

You say by choosing to alter our state, we cannot be here now. Why not?

There is only this moment, here and now. I am fairly certain that joedirt was not making a black and white dichotomy about the path of the traditionally spiritual adherent and the psychonaut, rather, I interpret his ideas as akin to many of my own. So, forgive me if I simplify the scenario... but there is a point in the psychedelic journey, when we begin to wonder if we are in some way addicted to the substances of our entheogenic voyages. Yes or no?

Can we attain this sublime perceptual expansion without the external chemical catalysts? Is not the human mind most naturally and organically capable of attaining "enlightenment" without the intervention of a psychedelic molecule? And is it not worth a sincere effort to find out directly if we can reach these planes of consciousness without chemical stimulus? Or is the awareness of such planes of being always due to a chemical stimulus, perhaps the byproduct of intense sadhana? Thus, can the path of the shaman and the spiritual seeker intertwine as one way?

If so, should we pursue those methods and practices which might most free us from the elevator ride into Cosmic Consciousness? Frankly, I honestly still don't know... and I may never have enough information at hand to come to a definitive, final stance. I am continually bringing this concept before the lens of my centrally subjective, ideological scrutiny.

And yes, I wholly agree that being in the presence of the NOW is the reality of all levels of awareness, whether we are in an ultra-expanded state... or a saturation of sorts, a state of natural equilibrium (such as the gradual attunement of the meditative state and ensuing lifestyle).

The present moment is the fulcrum of our very existence and we are the witnesses to this eternal law of being. Tripping our brains out or sitting in a "sober" consciousness of internal stillness, we are in the same exact Here and Now, but of course. Essentially, it only appears differentiated within the framework of human conception, as our minds color the emptiness with our own unique flavor of reality.

What a great thread. I've been wondering about this line of thought forever it seems. I have nothing of value to add just happy to see this.