SWIM's noticed very little difference between insuffulation and sublingual use, at least when smoking in conjunction. They both work quite well for that, but sublingual is preferable.

yeah its not quite so abrasive feeling sublingually

So. SWIM and friend attempted sublingual application again last night, per 69ron's suggestions. 60mg THH HCl per person was dropped into the basin underneath the tongue and allowed to sit for ~17 minutes, at which point the mouthful of bitter saliva that had accumulated was swallowed. After another 20-30 minutes, SWIM and friend could feel identifiable relaxation of the body, and a *very* faint sense of the "floating head" sensation experienced previously. Neither party experienced any nausea. Interestingly, SWIM seemed less affected this time around than his friend, who experienced pronounced relaxation leading to drowsiness. Still no tingling, vibration, or sense of "orgasmic" well being. The effects were very subtle, short-lived, and pleasant.

It seems strange to me that other people seem to report such distinct activity at comparably low doses (25-45mg), while SWIM and friend have had great difficulty achieving a similar experience.

SWIM will take a break for a couple days, and then resume testing with higher dosages and different methods. Oral ingestion and sublingual application with DMSO are at the top of the list. If anyone has further advice for SWIM, I'm certain he would find it valuable. Cheers!

try mixing it with other psychoactive's..you will notice a big difference

Definitely, more than you realize, so I'd recommend starting small if you're going to mix. It has a tendency to potentiate other entheogens.

That’s weird. Has SWIY ever tried peganum harmala or banisteriopsis caapi before? If so, was it anything like either of them?

Yah, I'm aware of its MAOI and potentiating activity, but thank you! SWIM figured it would be best to investigate the compound on its own and get a feel for it before combining it with other substances. Plus, the descriptions of the THH experience alone were enough to pique the curiosity of SWIM... unfortunately, SWIM hasn't been able to really attain an experience as strikingly positive as some have reported.

SWIM has very limited experience with harmala and none with caapi. SWIM once tried a solution from boiled harmala seeds - a very small dose, ~2g seed material. SWIM was being cautious... he felt no effect from the seed solution, but when he smoked ~30mg spice, he felt suddenly *overwhelmed* with nausea halfway through the second hit, which had never happened previously with DMT. He fought through it an had an otherwise unremarkable journey (as unremarkable as it gets). He tried another journey half an hour after that, and thought that he was going to have a f-ing heart attack, which was also a new experience. As clearly as he could comprehend anything, for the first portion of the journey, he *thought* he was experiencing dangerously high blood pressure and heart rate, and seriously thought he might die. SWIM has no way of knowing how much of that was real. Then tranquility set in, and a quite remarkable journey was had.

SWIM has not since had the balls to venture further into MAOI land. Since the seed solution didn't make itself felt, and since SWIM hasn't tried DMT with THH (yet), SWIM has little effective basis for comparison.

That was probably much more than you cared to know, but hey... why not?

From what I've read 2 parts THH + 3 parts Harmine + a little bit of Harmaline = Caapi.

Or so I assume from an ayahuasca analog recipe that 69ron gave to me a few days ago.

SWIM will soon have experience with this analog, when he receives his Harmine.

I believe also it's a common misconception that these harmala alkaloids are RIMA's not MAOI's. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes, they are RIMAs. RIMAs are a subclass of MAOIs that are reversible (very short acting) and only affect MAO-A and not MAO-B, meaning they are much safer than typical MAOIs and don’t require special diets. But even so, they could still be dangerous when mixed with other drugs. DMT has been used orally with these alkaloids for a very long time in the form of ayahuasca without any known fatalities, so it seems to be a relatively safe combination.

69ron, I do also remember reading that you do not fast before SWIY does an ayahuasca analog with these harmala alkaloids. Is it best to not have a full stomach, and maybe give a few hours after eating, or for most people should they have an empty stomach?

SWIM would like to try this some night, but he eats dinner and even a few hours afterwards this might be a problem. He could wait till morning, but would probably need to wake up around 5am so that his hours-long journey won't occur when the other house guest wakes up.

If taken on an empty stomach it will hit you faster, a little harder, and also not last as long. If taken on a full stomach the trip will be smoother and slightly weaker because it takes longer to absorb. SWIM actually prefers it more drawn out.

SWIM never fasts. The only times SWIM really got sick form psychedelics is when he fasted. Having a completely empty stomach, and then introducing alkaloids into the stomach is a very good way to shock your stomach and cause nausea. On an empty stomach SWIM’s digestive system is better able to detect the alkaloids and is more likely to attempt to eject them. At least it’s that way for SWIM. Normally SWIM eats dinner and then uses ayahuasca a few hours afterwards, and always has a drink and some solid food immediately after having the ayahuasca. If he doesn’t eat or drink directly after having the ayahuasca, he’s more likely to get nausea.

Basically, your stomach is stimulated to begin digestion when sweets or other tasty foods are sensed by the nose and tongue. This gets your stomach ready for digestion. Bitter tasting things like alkaloids have the opposite effect on your stomach. Bitter tastes indicate the presence of poisons so they slow down digestion and can also cause your body to reject what’s entering into your digestive system. This is why SWIM eats and drinks something tasty right after taking ayahuasca. The good smells and flavors overpower the bitterness of the ayahuasca and trick the body into thinking it digested food rather than a bunch of poison. Anyway, it works for SWIM.

That makes alot of sense...the last time I drank aya, I actaully fell asleap not long after the onset. I awoke a few hours later and ate very lightly then went back to bed when the brew really kicked in..works this way for mushrooms with me as well.

SWIM just tried 80mg THH and 40mg DMT using a packet of that True Lemon (which has mostly Citric Acid). The grocers don't seem to sell Citric Acid.

Anyway, 30 mins after ingestion, and taking some water and eating a bit of popcorn, SWIM only feels dizzy. It does feel like it might be building, but is it supposed to take over a half-hour to begin working? No closed-eye visuals or any fluidity. Just a feeling of being dizzy and what feels like pressure in the head.

That sounds horrible. Nothing at all like SWIM's experience.

Has SWIY taken any drugs recently that might have made the THH or DMT ineffective?

There are a few drugs which will make DMT ineffective for a few weeks. For example, iboga is said to do that.

Well, an hour later it is still building very slowly. A slight numbness in the hands and some difficulty focusing on reading and typing now. The dizziness is very slight. Not that bothersome at all. He does notice now that the words he's reading on a website do move around ever so slightly.

SWIM only takes Coumadin (a blood-thinner) but this has not had any effects on his smoking DMT in the past. If anything, it should make him more sensitive to it.

So none of the good effects yet, and just the feeling of drowsy, numbing, pressure in the head. Not really bad, somewhat comfortable, but not quite what he expects. He might need more later, but it still continues to build very, very slowly so he'll see how this goes.

Anyway, his scale isn't the most accurate, so he could have been 10mg lower than these amounts. He might not have taken enough THH to support the DMT very well. He's waiting for his new milligram scale to arrive. But at least he has an idea of threshold amounts.

How long does it take typically for SWIY to get the visuals after taking the analog?

30 minutes for visuals to start, and then its super intense at 45 minutes for SWIM, and starting to slowly fade at the 1 hour point with effects felt for another few hours. But SWIM used a minimum of 200 mg of THH and 20 mg of DMT. So it’s almost like comparing apples and oranges.

SWIM never experienced dizziness or pressure. That just doesn’t sound right to me. Do some people get that from caapi?

SWIM thinks the pressure came from the DMT because he frequenly during an experience feels that full body load. This is when smoking DMT by itself. When adding THH, the body load can be more pronounced.

Very interesting, Nanaki, and thank you for the report. What SWIY experienced is more similar to the experiences of SWIM than anything else I've read on the thread thus far. I assume SWIY hasn't yet tried administering their THH HCl by any method other than ingestion? I'd be very interested to hear the results of any further testing SWIY does, given the similarity between the experiences of SWIY and SWIM.

After the final rectal administration I mentioned earlier in the thread, this is pretty much exactly what SWIM experienced, along with a profound feeling of relaxation in the body.

SWIM had great results doing 15mg THH sublingually before smoking the DMT. He will try again tonight with 150mg THH orally, wait about 15 mins, and then 40mg DMT orally.

He ate about an hour ago, and so far no nausea. Just a few burps. He will be taking the DMT before long. Hopefully his scale reads right. It said 40mg, but that did not look anything like the amount equal to a pencil eraser in size. Maybe 1/2 of one. SWIM hopes to get results instead of wasting this THH which is like $40 a gram.

SWIY may have just bypassed these because he took sufficient amount. It's like SWIM, when he first started doing DMT, the body load was intense. Now, he shoots straight to hyperspace with little or any body load.