Overthrow without an inward change will just result in dysfunction in a different costume. It wasn't the dolphins, bears or the oaks that established money banks and corporations. It was Us. The human mind running untamed. What can be different if the spirit remains unchanged? Solving problems at the same level they were created and all...

If our minds do not get demoted to the role of beautiful tools we will continue to be apparently enslaved by its notions. Any overthrow will just result in new egocentric ideas causing suffering in new ways. We will just replace banks and corporations with other vehicles of insanity. Maybe ultra individuality in the name of idealistic anarchy. It might take a generation or two to build up the necessary complexity, but our minds unchanged will create suffering at the global scale quickly again.

I'm hopeful human evolution has hit a melting point - critical mass of obvious unfairness at the material level, global connectedness and rising self inquiry & awareness. If we wake up to our true nature a new era will unfold. If not, peace will eventually be had without the human race. Either way.

Peace

At the risk of damning myself with my first post, I am in agreement with the need for, if change is desired, a clear idea and a clear path towards it: starting here ->.

I don't think that the occupy movement will necessarily have any lasting direct effects, mostly because I think it is a demonstration - literally people being demonstrative. You remember the scene in "Network"?
People all shouting it from their windows, and listening out for others doing the same?

This is the same thing, upgraded. People demonstrating because they want to be a part of saying "enough is enough" and to confirm there are others like them. Standing up and being counted, literally.

The difficulty is, that after only a short time, a movement like this builds up tremendous political capital, and starts becoming a tasty looking target for more traditional politicians.

What you *will* see as a result of these demonstrations is that politicians will gravitate to single issue dog whistle politics in order to woo the "angry" political dollar (to mangle Bill Hicks).

I suppose my point is, it's not possible to tear up a thousand years of progressively more liberal governments (in broad terms, here in the UK at any rate) without violence, bloodshed, wailing and the gnashing of teeth. The net is changing everything, and we have accustomed ourselves to instant gratfication; we expect 'instant' results. But the big changes need to take the long view, or we risk oscillating wildly between extremes. And that means plotting a course from here to where we want to be (having first decided where we want to be).

And to return, briefly, to the point made about children. If you want to make a positive contribution to humanity, then you need to inculcate your attitudes into the next generation, or it all dies when you do. With the right parents, a virtuous circle of ever increasing baseline enlightenment beckons.

That sounds about right to me, except for the part about organizing and clear goals making any difference.

I believe the best strategy for the long term is, `give them enough rope to hang themselves.' IOW, things need to get a lot worse than they are now before the vast majority of humanity realizes just how untenable the current systems of government and economics are.

My prediction is that City States will make a comeback, although it may take a 100+ years--especially if people keep helping the authoritarians and greedy tweak their system by pointing out where they are making mistakes.

Take care,

- Tse

BTW..at the vancouver occupy site when I was there there was a big emphasis on the environment, along with all the other issues. A main issue seemed to be stopping the logging/deforestation of the old growth rainforests of BC..the PNW rainforest is one of the largest intact rainforests on the globe..and preserving this rainforest is a big deal. The problem of affordable hosueing was adressed as well(if have ever been to vancouver after the olympics you would understand this)..wages are so low here and cost of living is so high..this city has the largest gap between rich and poor in all of North America..which was another issue adressed.

I dont really agree with the people here who say claim that this movement lacks realistic or defined demands, at least not the movement that is happening in my city. If you really want to talk about it then go visit the movement that is going on locally near you and then come back and talk about it..reading about it on the internet might not give you a well rounded view.

There are a few occupy declaration documents floating around which list issues or grievances. Here is proposed a National General Assembly to be held July 4, 2012 in Philadelphia. Interesting plan to apply pressure for change:
https://sites.google.com...the99percentdeclaration/

What would Nexians like to have added to this list of issues or grievances? Topics that are core to the spirit of the Nexus would be most effective to incubate here.

Something along the lines of cognitive liberties or abolishing laws against possession and consumption of natural substances.

There must be some good work on the Nexus on these topics. Can we collaboratively draft a grievance to be included in documents such as above? Can we work anonymously to support their inclusion?

I am not going to give up on the devotion I feel that I must take action, I hope the flame never goes out for the hopes and dreams of human beings everywhere. Keep on moving on!

Thank you for your input. I disagree with a few of your points. Your right it wasnt the dolphins bears or oaks that created this system, but also it wasn't "us" (I for one had nothing to do with the direct creation of this current system, and i feel my voice (within the current system) is powerless. It was when corporations gained the same rights as a person that things started going downhill. They have the money and therefore the power. With their sneaky legal teams and lobbyists they have the government bent over to their will, and the people as well. This is an inherent CONFLICT OF INTEREST. When for example you have the people making certain questionable products also in charge of the regulation of these products, this is a serious problem. (Former monsanto lobbyist appointed head of FDA for one example) This conflict of interest is ALL OVER THE PLACE in todays corporate owned government. In the legal realm, conflict of interest is supposed to be illegal. Why then are the corporations allowed so much power? The answer is because they took it. They bend the laws in their favor and find ways (by way of legal advisors) to dodge them. They pay off the right people to stifle any "progress" that may occur. They are not concerned with anything but profit and will damage anything and everyone necessary on the way, the laws which are supposed to regulate them (environmental laws etc.) they have changed in their favor.

So what im saying is, there is a problem in the system. What is happening with this movement is people are expressing their unhappiness with the system, and protesting to change it.
We are not seeking for the ultimate solution to human suffering, so yes there still will be suffering throughout the world, this is a part of human life. But that does not mean we cannot stand up for what is right!

Many say, if we just tear the system apart we will be left worse off then before. I dont think this movement is trying to create anarchy or tear the whole system down in any way, Just people exercising their right to freely assemble and voice their concerns, in a system that has robbed us of our voices. Are things really so damn great right now that we have to tread on eggshells so as not to disturb this system we have? My thought is absolutely not, we are getting fucked over and pushed around left and right by greed, and its high time we get together and say enough is enough.

Think of the civil rights movement, this movement has many parrallels to that movement.
Exept instead of racial inequality, we are fighting social inequality (which absolutely exists).
This is something that needs to happen, and i for one am at least optimistic now about what the future of this country might hold, whereas before these protests my outlook on society was generally very bleak.

What is the answer than naysayers? Should we give up on our hope of true democracy and just let the greedy fuckers run rampant and continue to rape us and the earth? Fuck no!

Its clear corporate greed is destroying us, and the earth.
This is what the movement is about plain and simple.

For people who say it lacks clear goals and direction... Well get to work drafting up some goals and directions than. In the meantime there are already many documents full of many proposals and goals the protesters endorse, The Declaration of Ocuupation for one clearly illustrates the "reason" people are there. So to anyone who says "why?" read that document.
As for accomplishing goals, you got to give it time! This movment IS well organized, and has some brilliant people working for it. I for one have faith in their ability to draft up a better plan then the current congress/governments plan, which is do nothing, work for greed, and fuck everyone over. Seriously the system is so stagnant and pathetic it is laughable (if only it were funny) So why work so hard to protect this system which is inherently designed to shortchange us and milk us for every dime we are worth?

Divide and conquer my friends, thats their goal. Your either with the peopl or your not, think about what it is you are standing for if you are not with the people.

Peace brothers and sisters

Great points Harmalosa. I'm in agreement.

The additional perspective we can indicate (since we are here on the Nexus, where consciousness itself is explored in quite a bold fashion) - is that we should also be mindful of the level of consciousness we work to improve our situation.

"No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it." - Einstien

But as you point out we got to where we are likely by way of jaded consciousness; greed etc... Certainly if we work toward the ideal of democracy more light is being shared.

The Nexus should add to the declaration. Something on congitive liberty (some ideas at http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/mission.html) or ending the insane war on drugs.


Here is a 2008 thread on how to change the war on drugs.


Is this all a sign that complacency is wearing off as we now see what has been taken away?

I like your idea about nexus adding to it, because indeed the drug war is a direct violation of our cognative and human liberties. Not to mention our so called "freedom of religion" (more like the freedom to choose between a few organized religions). Hopefully this is a sign that people are becoming less complacent to what is going on around them, I definetly think it is a good step in that direction.

Maybe we could start a thread about what kind of declaration we could write up concerning cognitive liberty.

I find this movement become not so much a series of demands but a philosophy on a better way of life that the bulk of humanity can easily understand and relate to. People are smart enough to see that the current system is failing and this decentralization concept holds a logical appeal even if for many conservatives it does seem to be a little bit like a fairy tail. The fact of the matter is we have the technology and manpower to create any kind of world we want we just all have to agree to do just that. I think a lot of the naysayers aren't against it they are just skeptical about mankind actually doing it.

Added a few to this thread.

The Occupy Wall St movements are an incredible step in a our modern history. Even if no concrete legislative changes come about directly from the movement, the public presence acutely raises awareness of all of the serious issues facing our current nation and world. Particularly for those under age 30 who have and will continue to have to put up with a faulty economic and governmental system and its personal repercussions for the rest of their lives.

Even if none are educated directly from the movement itself, it incites the unknowing public to inquire about what is concerning their fellow citizens enough to take such drastic protest measures.

I fully support this movement as a beautiful expression of our most basic democratic rights.

Kind regards,

The Traveler

Good video that Traveller

A couple I'd like to share

RE: Cold winter & heating. Apparently it's too dangerous for the occupiers to have generators to keep warm. Instead they are going to be at risk of hypothermia...



Vatican calls for world bank. Please please please! Anyone involved with the Occupy movement. We MUST NOT! allow a world bank!



Also, the 1% global tax on all business transactions, no no no! We don't need moar tax! We need to actually collect the tax that's due from the super-corporations that are using loopholes to evade paying what they owe. We need to stop wasting resources bombing innocent people around the world. We need our governments to return to printing our own currencies, end fiat currency, but most important of all, remove interest!.

I hope everyone here knows how money is created from debt. If not, please please please go and look it up...

It's just madness...

i keep reading. that there is no understanding demands...for the movement...lets start it now..what are the 10 most important changes anyone here would make..list them. as the list grows. the main list will create itself. i would guess to be about 3 or 4 being the same for the world. to me that would be a good start. we all have out of 10 atleast a few that we can agree on to help our world and its people. let the movement get momemtum from that.. it is about the whole not the one.. who shall be the first. to rewrite our world? i will think of mine

1. End Private companies right to lobby and bribe our political officials.

2. A separate independent entity that scrutinizes government officials accused of illegal acts. We have one now it just doesn't work.

2. Drastic, Hell epic education reform (I COULD WRITE 10 PAGES ON THIS EASILY)- My specialty BTW. I will be doing some devious stuff in this field soon.

4. Tax reform: Warren buffet publicly stated that he pays less taxes than his secretary.

5. Full repealing of the patriot act. Read it and you'll understand why. If you haven't researched it you should not be brandying about a uninformed opinion. This is one sick demented bill right out of WWII Nazi Germany. Basically giving you rights up the the time they decide you cant have them anymore.

The core concept is to remove all corporate influence from govt as they should hold 0 influence over the laws of our nation. If a company cannot operate withing the laws set down by the people of this nation then that company should not exist.

And FYI if you don't think were in a police state it was leaked a few days ago that obama is training 20k US army troops to deal with civil unrest. Wonder how many peen state massacres will happen this time...............

6. Corporations are not people. They do not have blood, cannot serve a jail sentence, and cannot vote(but they sure as hell can buy an election).

7. Set up an independent efficiency monitoring body. Yeah I know another bureaucracy, but everyone knows there is tremendous waste in our government. From getting 3 letters telling me I have a tax return coming, to lets give this single mother $5000 to take a half semester of school and drop out. I am all for helping out the poor and single mothers, but I have known many people who freely take govt money thats suppose to suppoort them during their studies and buy a bigscreen T.V., xbox and a new living room set with there fast school cash. Go to school for two weeks, and quit because its hard.

Where are the limits. If we give someone money to go to school they better damn well go there, or give the money back. Sorry I know this is just one tiny issue in an ocean of corruption, but hope this gives you an idea of what I am talking about.

1

This movement is too small yet, to succeed. If it is to succeed, then it needs to grow.
If it is to grow, then they´ll need to advertise themselves...campagne, campagne, campagne.

Make viral commercials that will draw the attention, keep repeating the same simple message over and over again just like the enemy does...stuff like that.