☂
Posts: 5257 Joined: 29-Jul-2009 Last visit: 24-Aug-2024 Location: 🌊
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jbark wrote:
So are you saying the central goal, the overriding IDEA, is to overthrow the entire government and the economy and the "system"? Do you not see the flaw in this? What will replace it? We do not live in a totalitarian regime, we do not live in an oppressive dictatorship, we do not live in a self-serving oligarchy (yes, i know, I hear many of you protesting and asserting that we DO, but by strict definition, WE DO NOT, we live in a democracy). What is everyone proposing we replace the "system" with? It is naive and self destructive to want to simply tear something down without at LEAST proposing a viable alternative, and one that in this case would have the support of the rest of the world, like Egypt did, as Lybia is doing - this IS the big difference. They are not in the same zoo, let alone the same family!
To rail against the powers that be without a centralized organization, and a clear ATTAINABLE goal, I am afraid is a railing doomed to failure.
But there is hope, IF they organize. Am I alone in this thinking?
JBArk
My point was that we cannot go on as we have been for much longer. sure maybe twenty years, but a hundred? no way..We have right now the technology, knowledge, and resources to change everything but we lack that vision and change of mind..not to mention that this isn't in the best interest of big business and their puppets in washington.. i understand where your coming from, i see the problems with trying to overthrow it, and im not claiming to know what we could replace the current system with, or saying that we necessarily should just overthrow it.. and while so far there are suggestions, no one knows yet- but this process continues to unfold regardless and even if we don't succeed in massive changes in how the system works its worth a shot, is it not? The only reason we are resistant to seriously consider ideas about major fundamental changes to it or a different system altogether because its all we've ever known. But its becoming outdated regardless of how we feel. This video someone posted in here recently rings a bell http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAjFBsp__aE (the title sounds new agey but its actually very good) I guess i just don't see the problem with addressing many of the huge issues we face through this movement? It certainly is a big opportunity, and if we didn't succeed in any big changes, at least we brought the awareness of the issues to millions. Sure it will take a while for any changes to formulate, be agreed upon, and be put into play, but as the childhood saying goes; shoot for the moon, and even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.. ok bad analogy perhaps but you get the point  ..I'm not saying there is any goal. in quoting pincbeck i was just offering another perspective on why this is..the point was that there may not be a central goal (although there website lists many if you follow joedirts link, so again claiming there aren't any goals isn't really correct?) yet because people realize that there are many many problems and this is a newly created global movement, so its understandable there isn't any one narrow direction yet, like pand said-its coalescing..i'm skeptical but i was merely pointing out why being so pessimistic about it because of the apparent lack of a unified goal is sort of missing the point. i hope some of that makes sense, i'm getting discombobulated here And sure we live in what we call a 'democracy', but if the word still means "a government by the people" then we are surely straying away from that definition of it, what with the influence corporations have on government these days ect. And the idea that many elections in the US are even legit is debatable and very unlikely imo but thats getting into conspiracy theory area so i'll stop now
<Ringworm>hehehe, it's all fun and games till someone loses an "I"
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Got Naloxone?
 
Posts: 3240 Joined: 03-Aug-2009 Last visit: 23-Jan-2025 Location: United Police States of America
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jbark wrote:
So are you saying the central goal, the overriding IDEA, is to overthrow the entire government and the economy and the "system"? Do you not see the flaw in this? What will replace it? We do not live in a totalitarian regime, we do not live in an oppressive dictatorship, we do not live in a self-serving oligarchy (yes, i know, I hear many of you protesting and asserting that we DO, but by strict definition, WE DO NOT, we live in a democracy). What is everyone proposing we replace the "system" with? It is naive and self destructive to want to simply tear something down without at LEAST proposing a viable alternative, and one that in this case would have the support of the rest of the world, like Egypt did, as Lybia is doing - this IS the big difference. They are not in the same zoo, let alone the same family!
To rail against the powers that be without a centralized organization, and a clear ATTAINABLE goal, I am afraid is a railing doomed to failure.
But there is hope, IF they organize. Am I alone in this thinking?
JBArk
Looking at the OWS stated goals as posted by joedirt, what I saw was more an attempt to fix our democracy, not replace it. "But even if nothing lasts and everything is lost, there is still the intrinsic value of the moment. The present moment, ultimately, is more than enough, a gift of grace and unfathomable value, which our friend and lover death paints in stark relief."-Rick Doblin, Ph.D. MAPS President, MAPS Bulletin Vol. XX, No. 1, pg. 2Hyperspace LOVES YOU
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L A
Posts: 16 Joined: 14-Oct-2011 Last visit: 20-Nov-2011 Location: N-E Europe
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jbark wrote:So are you saying the central goal, the overriding IDEA, is to overthrow the entire government and the economy and the "system"? Do you not see the flaw in this? What will replace it? We do not live in a totalitarian regime, we do not live in an oppressive dictatorship, we do not live in a self-serving oligarchy (yes, i know, I hear many of you protesting and asserting that we DO, but by strict definition, WE DO NOT, we live in a democracy). What is everyone proposing we replace the "system" with? It is naive and self destructive to want to simply tear something down without at LEAST proposing a viable alternative, and one that in this case would have the support of the rest of the world, like Egypt did, as Lybia is doing - this IS the big difference. They are not in the same zoo, let alone the same family!
To rail against the powers that be without a centralized organization, and a clear ATTAINABLE goal, I am afraid is a railing doomed to failure.
But there is hope, IF they organize. Am I alone in this thinking?
JBArk What he said. I truly see the reason people are out there; the fact very many of those actually having no true idea why they're participating/demanding (hive-thinking, simply going with the flow) left aside, the project is noble really. BUT, as JBArk already pointed out - what would be the substitute? Do people want anarchy? As i see it - the system isn't perfect. Nowhere near it. It goes for capitalism as well as for democracy. In order to give up one of those 'systems', a new and hopefully better one has to be created for substitute. Until that point - what?!
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 12340 Joined: 12-Nov-2008 Last visit: 02-Apr-2023 Location: pacific
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I think people tend to not understand what "anarchy" is and it is misused in topics such as this to describe something that is not actaully classical anarachy. If it were not for anarchy there would have never been unions. Do some research and read Emma Goldman if you want to understand anarchy. What is going on already IS ANARCHY. If it were not for anarchy ther would be no such social movements taking place. Long live the unwoke.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 2854 Joined: 16-Mar-2010 Last visit: 01-Dec-2023 Location: montreal
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fractal enchantment wrote:jbark wrote:fractal enchantment wrote:If you have a movemnt happening near you go there and talk to the people there..it is not just one issue trying to be adressed..it is many many issues and many many people are involved in this movement. There has never in our lifetimes been ANYTHING like this on such a large scale. It is naive to assume that a concensus on objectives etc will be reached so soon. I have been to the occupy Vancouver site and I can assure you Jbark everything you have outlined in your posts here these people are well aware of and it is something they are trying to address. The problem is the large diversity of people who are all basically just fed up..it will take time for a clear set of demands to manifest IMO becasue the situation is much more complex than your adverage protest. Thank you Fractal, you seem to understand what i am getting at. I am reassured to hear they are aware of what is lacking and what is needed and are addressing the problem. My fear however is that all these disparate interests and the "diversity of people" and their individual beefs may undermine an emerging central goal, be there one. i must say though, pointing out a problem and suggesting solutions is NOT an attack. I fear for this movement if everyone is so gung-ho that they will not bring reason to the table, and address the weaknesses and endeavour to organize around attainable, common goals. It should be simple, but ZEAL appears to be the enemy: Are we so far gone and so far into the propaganda of this movement that ANY criticism is unwelcomed and vituperated? I hope not. There is a long road ahead. Let's build it and straight and narrow and focused, so that it has IMPACT and is not a little sociological blip 6 months for now. JBArk PS it is a sad state i fear when only the voices of unquestioning agreement are listened to. Is this not, in part, what people are protesting? I was actaully just there a day ago and will be back in the next 2 days most likely..and there was some obvious disagreements still taking place while trying to come to a concensus concerning what demands/objectives etc were to be set for the occupy vancouver movement..some people did not like the fact that there were organizers with microphones speaking(they wanted to be rid of that heirarchy in they're own words) while others felt that even comming to a concensus at this time over specifics was a rediculous goal with so many people and for now it should be more generalized..I think they are getting somewhere though and this was only the second day.. One guy got really vocal and was yelling overtop of the microphone in the crowd becasue he disagreed with the approach the speaker was taking and he wanted a turn to speak..in turn the police surrounded this man as if he were some wild animal and then some other guy started to flip out about the police surrounding this guy and that basically became the focus of the next 4 or 5 minutes..and the police sort of scuffled back to the back of the crowd..but it was unnerving to say the least.. People are just so fed up and that is the real issue..there are so many problems trying to be adressed by so many people from different walks of life..this is not all just hippies..this was families there with they're children, punks, hippies, homeless people, college students, business men in suits and ties..all of them just sick of the way things are. That is the real issue IMO..people are just sick and tired and probabily dont even know what else to do but show up there. That is the impression I got. Yes people are fed up, a lot with good reason. But you know what I predict is going to happen? Without a centralized organization and clear goals and a leader? Interest rates will be brought down, inflation will be artificially curbed and a lot of people will be satisfied that they can buy more SHIT. And they will stop protesting, once they have the illusion of having a little more pie. A few years of spinning and misdirection and it will all come crashing down again... But people will be able to watch the crashing on new 60 inch flatscreens on newish sofas and it will take another 20-30 years for a new generation to get riled up again. Sound familiar? It happens over and over again... And I have seen no evidence to suggest this time will be any different. So why the aversion to organizing and having CLEAR goals? Sorry if this sounds cynical, i have just seen it over and over and over... Instead of just calling me a naysayer, how about demonstrating how this one IS different? I am open... And I would LOVE to believe this could work in its pellmell disorganized chaotic mock-anarchic multi-goaled every-person-for-themselves lobby-less form, but HOW? JBArk JBArk is a Mandelthought; a non-fiction character in a drama of his own design he calls "LIFE" who partakes in consciousness expanding activities and substances; he should in no way be confused with SWIM, who is an eminently data-mineable and prolific character who has somehow convinced himself the target he wears on his forehead is actually a shield.
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Posts: 6739 Joined: 13-Apr-2009 Last visit: 10-Apr-2022
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http://piratepad.net/5NTmFUwppPHere are those clear goals you cant seem to stop begging for jbark 
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 2854 Joined: 16-Mar-2010 Last visit: 01-Dec-2023 Location: montreal
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joedirt wrote:I certainly do NOT want to overthrow the entire current system. That would be catastrophic beyond imagination. If we broke down the banking system literally millions, perhaps hundreds of millions would die from starvation. Anyone thinking that total anarchy would be awesome is being naive. I have not met very many advocating this...but I have met a few. I try to talk reason to them and get them to see another way.
However, I do want immediate and drastic change to how our government works. I want a separation of government and state and I want us to actually apply separation of church and state. Our government has been bought and paid for buy big business. This isn't even a debate is it? I mean it's all perfectly out in the open.
I don't know any other way to force this issue than what you are seeing. If nothing else it's bringing a lot of awareness to the issues that many people care about. This alone could potentially reflect itself in policy making in the coming years.
I also think the decentralized strategy is the best bet for long term success of this movement. This strategy will allow them to keep it going long enough to keep it a relevant topic for politicians and policy makers.
This is what i mean... you don't, but many out there protesting CERTAINLY do. And that is precisely what i mean. There is, so far, ZERO focus. And that is bad. JBArk is a Mandelthought; a non-fiction character in a drama of his own design he calls "LIFE" who partakes in consciousness expanding activities and substances; he should in no way be confused with SWIM, who is an eminently data-mineable and prolific character who has somehow convinced himself the target he wears on his forehead is actually a shield.
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Not I
Posts: 2007 Joined: 30-Aug-2010 Last visit: 23-Sep-2019
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fractal enchantment wrote:I think people tend to not understand what "anarchy" is and it is misused in topics such as this to describe something that is not actaully classical anarachy. If it were not for anarchy there would have never been unions. Do some research and read Emma Goldman if you want to understand anarchy.
Hey interesting you pointed this out...and that I was one of the people misusing it... The first day we went to the protest there was a harvard professor leading a discussion on what anarchy really was. I found it interesting and you are right. I was using it wrongly, but I was using it in the context that most people know it which that most people equate anarchy and vigilante. If your religion, faith, devotion, or self proclaimed spirituality is not directly leading to an increase in kindness, empathy, compassion and tolerance for others then you have been misled.
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Posts: 6739 Joined: 13-Apr-2009 Last visit: 10-Apr-2022
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Not I
Posts: 2007 Joined: 30-Aug-2010 Last visit: 23-Sep-2019
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jbark wrote:joedirt wrote:I certainly do NOT want to overthrow the entire current system. That would be catastrophic beyond imagination. If we broke down the banking system literally millions, perhaps hundreds of millions would die from starvation. Anyone thinking that total anarchy would be awesome is being naive. I have not met very many advocating this...but I have met a few. I try to talk reason to them and get them to see another way.
However, I do want immediate and drastic change to how our government works. I want a separation of government and state and I want us to actually apply separation of church and state. Our government has been bought and paid for buy big business. This isn't even a debate is it? I mean it's all perfectly out in the open.
I don't know any other way to force this issue than what you are seeing. If nothing else it's bringing a lot of awareness to the issues that many people care about. This alone could potentially reflect itself in policy making in the coming years.
I also think the decentralized strategy is the best bet for long term success of this movement. This strategy will allow them to keep it going long enough to keep it a relevant topic for politicians and policy makers.
This is what i mean... you don't, but many out there protesting CERTAINLY do. And that is precisely what i mean. There is, so far, ZERO focus. And that is bad. I know were you are coming from jbark. However, at least here in Boston, it seems many more people are trying to organize for positive change. In fact most of the wingers aren't really taking serious at all. It seems to me that most of the cities are like that. If your religion, faith, devotion, or self proclaimed spirituality is not directly leading to an increase in kindness, empathy, compassion and tolerance for others then you have been misled.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 2854 Joined: 16-Mar-2010 Last visit: 01-Dec-2023 Location: montreal
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۩ wrote:http://piratepad.net/5NTmFUwppP Here are those clear goals you cant seem to stop begging for jbark 37 mostly unrelated (and many, many unrealistic) goals that will serve to divide the movement more than unify it. This is not FOCUS or clarity: "GET THE FUCK OUT OF VIETNAM" ...is clarity, but even that didn't work, for lack of clear leadership and a realistic agenda, timeframe and compromise. 37 things with no clear through-line is not a list of goals, but rather, sorry, a quickly cobbled mess. JBArk is a Mandelthought; a non-fiction character in a drama of his own design he calls "LIFE" who partakes in consciousness expanding activities and substances; he should in no way be confused with SWIM, who is an eminently data-mineable and prolific character who has somehow convinced himself the target he wears on his forehead is actually a shield.
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Posts: 6739 Joined: 13-Apr-2009 Last visit: 10-Apr-2022
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Why dont you edit it then? Its open to the public.
And why dont you stop shitting all over what we are trying to do? Get over it man. If you dont want to participate, go live your peachy life and forget this is even happening.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 2854 Joined: 16-Mar-2010 Last visit: 01-Dec-2023 Location: montreal
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۩ wrote:Why dont you edit it then? Its open to the public.
And why dont you stop shitting all over what we are trying to do? Get over it man. If you dont want to participate, go live your peachy life and forget this is even happening. Nice. Anything else? PS I guess I will. Clearly, this issue is not debatable or questionable. A real shame. Bye. good luck. JBArk is a Mandelthought; a non-fiction character in a drama of his own design he calls "LIFE" who partakes in consciousness expanding activities and substances; he should in no way be confused with SWIM, who is an eminently data-mineable and prolific character who has somehow convinced himself the target he wears on his forehead is actually a shield.
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Posts: 6739 Joined: 13-Apr-2009 Last visit: 10-Apr-2022
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Yeah, You aren't helping at all.
Im sure it makes you feel better to know you are right and hundreds of thousands / millions of people are wrong.
Way to go jbark!
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 12340 Joined: 12-Nov-2008 Last visit: 02-Apr-2023 Location: pacific
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at the site here in Van, anyone is welcome to come a write down any demand etc they want into a big book they have. Anyone can come down and book a time to either speak to the crowd or just write down what they want for the crowd to later here and discuss. If you dont like the damands then go and discuss that with them. That is the only way any of this will work anyway. Long live the unwoke.
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metamorhpasizer
Posts: 995 Joined: 31-Mar-2009 Last visit: 28-Jun-2024 Location: US
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No comment on the arguing front, but im all for the occupy movement, and i do think the entire government needs to be overthrown and replaced by people who truly serve the peoples interests. More power to everyone who is willing to stand up for change. And jbark ill say this. You seem worried that if the movement succeeds we will be left in chaos and anarchy, but i dont think that will happen. Also we as humans have a few basic needs for survival and i can assure you that huge corporations, banks, money, and consumer plastic society are not among them. Its about more than occupy wall street, its time we occupy our minds and start making real changes in the way we live our lives. You have never been apart from me. You can never depart and never return, for we are continuous, indistinguishable. We are eternal forever
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L A
Posts: 16 Joined: 14-Oct-2011 Last visit: 20-Nov-2011 Location: N-E Europe
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fractal enchantment wrote:I think people tend to not understand what "anarchy" is and it is misused in topics such as this to describe something that is not actaully classical anarachy. If it were not for anarchy there would have never been unions. Do some research and read Emma Goldman if you want to understand anarchy. What is going on already IS ANARCHY. If it were not for anarchy ther would be no such social movements taking place. Okay, as this word is taken as by it's definition, let me rephrase it. The solution wouldn't be anarchy as-is, but un-regulated non functional state. Thanks for Emma Goldman though, never heard of her.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 2854 Joined: 16-Mar-2010 Last visit: 01-Dec-2023 Location: montreal
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۩ wrote:Yeah, You aren't helping at all.
Im sure it makes you feel better to know you are right and hundreds of thousands / millions of people are wrong.
Way to go jbark! No, it genuinely saddens me that hundreds of thousands / millions of people will just flow with a movement without asking any hard, self-critical questions (there are probably some (a lot) who do, but a lot of them i am sure just resort to saying things like "And why dont you stop shitting all over what we are trying to do? Get over it man. If you dont want to participate, go live your peachy life and forget this is even happening." ) I thought free thinking was about considering new perspectives and weighing them... Don't worry, I won't challenge you any further. I am sorry for the disruption. Back to the regular scheduled program. Ciao. JBArk is a Mandelthought; a non-fiction character in a drama of his own design he calls "LIFE" who partakes in consciousness expanding activities and substances; he should in no way be confused with SWIM, who is an eminently data-mineable and prolific character who has somehow convinced himself the target he wears on his forehead is actually a shield.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 178 Joined: 14-Aug-2010 Last visit: 29-Sep-2024
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Going to occupy tomorrow. I don't mind about the common ground or the disagreements or the idea of overthrowing or not. Maybe I hopeful, but maybe this is a manifestation self knowledge evolving within the human spirit. If I get that sense, I'll continue to participate with hands, time and thought even when we invariably disagree. We all get caught up in the mechanics and positions; being right and correcting opposing views. That's the dream of mind and will continue the suffering - just in a different form. But if we are beginning to know beyond mind, our thought and actions will serve all humanity and all Nature. Quote:
"To bring about peace in the world, to stop all wars, there must be a revolution in the individual, in you and me.
Economic revolution without this inward revolution is meaningless, for hunger is the result of the maladjustment of economic conditions produced by our psychological states - greed, envy, ill will and possessiveness. To put an end to sorrow, to hunger, to war, there must be a psychological revolution and few of us are willing to face that. We will discuss peace, plan legislation, create new leagues, the United Nations and so on and on; but we will not win peace because we will not give up our position, our authority, our money, our properties, our stupid lives.
To rely on others is utterly futile; others cannot bring us peace. No leader is going to give us peace, no government, no army, no country. What will bring peace is inward transformation which will lead to outward action.
Inward transformation is not isolation, is not a withdrawal from outward action. On the contrary, there can be right action only when there is right thinking and there is no right thinking when there is no self-knowledge. Without knowing yourself, there is no peace."
J. Krishnamurti - The First and Last Freedom, p.183
"Blinded by their own sight, hearing, feeling, and knowing, they don't perceive the radiance of the source. If they could eliminate all conceptual thinking, this source would appear, like the sun rising through the empty sky and illuminating the whole universe." - Huang Po
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metamorhpasizer
Posts: 995 Joined: 31-Mar-2009 Last visit: 28-Jun-2024 Location: US
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OVERTHROW!!! You have never been apart from me. You can never depart and never return, for we are continuous, indistinguishable. We are eternal forever
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