Caution: Unless you know a lot about neuro-chemistry and/or pharmacology and/or psychology you will likely be confused by this.

I should tell you now that I have many really odd and paradoxical reactions to drug and psychedelics.
The actual condition I have I am not sure, the general symptoms are: Excessive daily sleepyness, general + social anxiety and an odd thinking pattern which include an eidetic memory, strong lateral thinking skills but often overly-specified thinking. (missing the big-picture).
I've had 1 consultation with a psychiatrist who tried to throw SSRI's at me but I refused because I am not medium-ly to seriously depressed which is the only thing they have proven to be significantly effective for over placebo for. I'm getting another consultation scheduled in the near future though. I anticipate that a low-dose DNRI like Ritalin or maybe Adderal or Dexedrine will prove to be beneficial for me... but anyway.

So anyway about the odd reactions. About 98% of the time I don't get serotonin or dopamine release from psychedelics or drugs.
Ex: I take MDMA and I get anxious, distractable and dysphoric.
Ex: I take LSD and I get visuals and perspective shift but sedation, anxiety, dysphoria and distractability.

Now I won't go on anymore but that is just to tell that my body is weird about serotonin and dopamine release and when it does happen it is just like I read it is for everyone else, when it doesn't then the symptoms like above are experience.


The reaction in question:
Tonight is the third time this has happened to me. The first 2 times I ate 50mg of 5-htp at noon then a meal with tryptophan-rich foods less than 3 hours before bed. Pork and Soy protein (50% protein) and then when I went to bed I woke up after 1:30-2:30 hours groggy for the first 3-4 minutes but then very stimulated and then euphoric for several hours.
The next day I (in both cases) I was more energetic than usual but needed to nap or go to bed a couple hours earlier than usual but no hangover or anything, just what one would expect from sleeping only 1:30-2:30.

Tonight it happened again but this time I didn't take 5-htp and I didn't take it yesterday either.

Below is a Journal entry from just a bit ago, abridged to just include the important stuff






So I really don't know if anyone would know much about this but I suppose at minimum it could be an entertaining read for some. I will continue to try to find the answer myself regardless of 100 replies or 0 though.

Cheers

Perhaps instead of approaching the situation from the standpoint of food/drug intake, you may want to delve into some heavy meditation or qi gong or the sort. If you're feeling sleepy throughout the day, then perhaps it's because you're not allowing your mind/body ample time to relax/refresh which doesn't necessarily have to come from sleep (though getting around 7 hours sleep a day surely will help). On the flip side, moderate exercise can help too and you may want to consider practicing meditation shortly following the exercise to allow yourself some energetic rejuvination.

That is a good idea. I know that most of the time during exercise the endorphin rush just doesn't come at all and I end up feeling worse during and for a period after excercise but like with drugs or psychedelics often a few hours after, when I theorize the serotonin release is at a level my body can process, I get a nice warm feeling for a while.

There are a few things that have fudges the 98% rule and one that seems to have broken it but not completely.
1: Taking micro-doses then mini doses over several hours of MDMA-like substances. The last time I tried this I got a little rushed and took too much too fast and the rising pleasant feeling stopped completely. At the time I was addicted to GHB pretty harshly (sober from it 2 months tomorrow though!) and I binged on it which lowered my judgement and I just took the rest. Since then they have scheduled the stuff and MDMA's negative effects are SUPER LAME plus I get the hangover whether I get high or not.
This I mention not because I plan to pursue taking MDMA-like substances but just to note that serotonin release processing vs time since first dose is a sloping up line, I believe
Note:Yes I know someone died taking MXE with MDAI. But the idiot INJECTED 400mg MDAI with 100mg MXE. Both of them FAR ABOVE the STRONG dose for oral.
I found 3 accounts online of doses higher than the one I chose with each stating positive effects and one going out and mentioning the lack of any notable negative physical side-effects before I chose to go ahead with it.

2:The second one actually may explain the middle-of-the-night effect at least partly. A combination of MXE at low doses (15-20mg) with anything serotonin releasing (5-htp, MDAI tried so far) produces typical effects from the drug, enhanced possible. So basically I believe the sloping up line can be raised significantly by dissociation.
I thought at first that it was my anxiety that was blocking the release but I can be with my friends in the most comfortable environment or by myself, doesn't matter. Even on a low dose of clonazepam doesn't help either but dissociation works 3 for 3.
Actually 10 for 10 if you count mushrooms. Mushrooms have been the only reliable euphoric substance for me and only on the first MXE combo did I realize that the mushroom's natural dissociation alongside serotonin release fits the ideal circumstance.
This brings me to the middle-of-the-night meat parties. I believe that sleeping shortly then waking up somewhat delirious (as we all do) is a state similar to dissociation and thus allows the serotonin release.

Now of course I don't want to only feel good at 2:30am-7:00am, though I know many would find that ideal.. jk. I want to be able to have my body utilize my serotonin and dopamine properly

Dopamine release by the way, I almost completely solved already. Just titrating the dose of caffeine or whatever from 1/8 regular dose to regular on the 4th or 5th day works fine. But that DOESN'T work for serotonin so after I don't know which day, 3 maybe, it is all dopamine rush from the caffeine and the serotonin is missing causing manic ideas streaming but no pleasure from doing any of them no matter how good the idea is.

Well to get to what you said, I do excercise regularly. 7-8 times a week for an hour or more, plus I work as a gymnastics coach but just meditating, which of course similar to sleeping could be dissociating enough to allow the release (of opioids too I hope!) and considering sleep lets the serotonin flow for HOURS after when I eat meat before bed this could prove to be very useful.

If you can't tell I work things out by typing them, YOU ONLY REALLY NEED TO READ THE YELLOW.

Thanks

It seems that by attempting to control your serotonin flow, you may be making conditions that end up making you more unhealthy. I think that maybe instead of focusing on chemical control, you should work on relaxing and recomposing than an approach of overstimulating the brain at odd times of day with dissociation and delirious states.

Oh yeah...

I mentioned this on that other thread, but you really should look into meditation and chi kung. It might be your ticket to ride. Takes some practice to generate the theta waves, but with a little practice you'll get there. You could use brain entrainment (light and sound together work best) to help get you down there. And theta waves can be fairly dissociative as well.

Not surprising that you found dissos to be helpfull, actually. They are the only class of drug that I recommend to people who are having serious anxiety or panic issues. Dissociation is more anxiolytic than anything the psychiatrists pass out.

I think Global is right, though. Instead of using chemicals to deal with this and setting yourself up to become habitual with any external substance, you would be wise to try and achieve balance on your own. Though, a few months seeing an accupunturist and herbalist might be really good as well. They are actually quite good with rebalancing neurotransmitters.

Ginseng has recently been shown to have some SSRI properties actually.

Though I used to try (and fail) to use chemicals to raise mood and motivation I have moved past that stage almost completely.
I have cut my GHB addiction and gone from 5-6 times a week on other drugs to ... 7 times in the last 2 months.

I will likely continue with maybe 5-10 more MXE combo tests but I'm not seeking a way to make partying fun or anything. I am seeking an answer to why my body is doing this and just like when I figured out how to make caffeine work, I stopped wanting it cause I had the answer to why it didn't work.

True, it could be better to put that aside completely and focus on the non-chemical methods, I am still suffering with very significant excessive-daytime-fatigue and lack of motivation.

As I mentioned I anticipate when I get an appointment I will probably be prescribed a DNRI to help with that because as I get more sleepy/fatigued I get less motivated, I get anxious then feel worthless
Honestly since I ran out of MXE the week after I was beaming, no problems with motivation, re-organized my whole room and I assumed it was the 5-htp I was taking that was doing that. Now that is fading VERY obviously as I'm closing in on 2 weeks since I ran out. I am back to dragging myself to do the simplest jobs around the house and anhedonic about the things I enjoy most, except when I wake up at 2 or 3 after eating meat before bed.

I will definitely look into the meditation you mentioned because I've been listening to a relaxation tape and it does put me into a very pleasant relaxed state but it is very fleeting and fades in 2-3 minutes after it is done. I can totally believe using different methods the state could be sustained far after that.

There is one thing that really turned me off of pursuing meditation last time I tried to look into it though.
One of the sites mentioned that one should get to a point where they are constantly meditating, observing but not judging or expecting... or something like that and that just sounds to me empty and just ... lifeless.

I will look up chi kung and theta waves still but

What one group tells you about meditation, another group may say the exact opposite, so I think it's necessary to practice within reason and what's compatible with you. I actually had that same sort of reaction to the whole non-judgment thing, and I can kind of see where they're coming from because it sort of prevents establishing negative thought patterns, but on the other hand, I still allow myself to feel angry or sorrowful feelings, but after I've worked through them, I try to release the judgments I've made about them.

You might be surprised at how much more alive you feel as you gain clarity from practicing meditation. There's a certain "fullness" that accompanies the "emptiness".

There are many meditation techniques and this is just one of them.
I personally have given up most of my meditation. Only every once in a while for example in nature closing my eyes and relaxing. After going through many tecniques and yogas, I find it to be the best way. No tecniques except closing one's eyes and relaxing.
One thing I can recommend is a good and enjoyable hobby or sport such as cycling etc., gives me personally much more happiness than any meditation tecnique.

Meditation can mean both the state achieved once one is successful with one's practice, as well as the practice itself.

The techniques are varied and have different advantages or disadvantages, and once one is really familiar with the meditative state, the techniques can be dropped. Most meditation techniques can be considered like training wheels.

Though, unlike training wheels, it is often not better to drop them even when they are unneeded because they still make the process shorter. What might take me 15 min to a half an hour to do with plain quiet sitting and intention can be accomplished in 5 minutes with a mind machine. Mantras and visualizations can be very effective.

For most, true meditation can be measured in seconds... miliseconds. If you can get to the point where you can bring your meditation with you while walking or doing complicated kung fu forms, you will be very stoked.

I wouldn't worry about emptiness being boring. If anything, negative emotions, being in a rut, and over sensetivity to meaningless dramas are boring. Judgment gets replaced with a deep visceral connection to the objects and subjective processes. It is like one's mind stretches out to include the other things rather than peeping out fearfully at them from a keyhole.

I have never heard of meditation making anyone feel less alive than you already seem to be.

Anyway, check out a good acupuncturist in addition to some chi kung or other internal art. DNRIs might give you energy, but they also drain you and age you. There is no free lunch with stimulants.

I can vouch for this one. Light and sound can be very powerful and synergistic with each other. (the light is like "hey baby, wanna get synergistic with me? And the sound is all "oh HELLS yea sugardaddy!" And then they make sweet, sweet alpha rhythms...

LOL

I thought I was the only one whose mind machine components conspired with each other to create sweet synergy

Hahahah.

ROFLOL

Cue the Rev. Al Green soundtrack.

Hey guys, I've been reading this and really been hopeful about it but I've tried 3 times to get started but there is so much possibly-bullshit stuff to download can you guys direct me to an e-book, audiobook or video series that would be at least a starting point?

I just did a Methoxetamine test yesterday and I totally had a "eureka" and "durrrrrr" discovery.
This was because I had massive fatigue, anxiety and at points paranoia and strong vascular constriction which is the EXACT same ration I have to drinking a cup of coffee after not having one for over a week. But I figured out how to solve.



I thought that caffeine's effects would change for the worse after that but I am pretty sure that was because of the other things I was taking, nto caffeine, during my last test.

Anyway, the discovery was that the 3 things that "unlock the door" to serotonin release/processing in these 2-5% of the times have 1 thing completely consistent.

1:Methoxetamine has DNRI effects - dopamine release
2:GHB/GBL is a dopamine agonist
3:Waking up is triggered/accompanied with a surge of dopamine

So I have realized that it is not the dissociation that is needed but the dopamine that leads the serotonin. This means that if I need anything it can just be coffee while I try to work on this mediation thing, which I assume can be utilized to manifest serotonin and/or dopamine release.

So F*** MXE for testing, it was only the DNRI that mattered in it and coffee will do just fine it I really need it for that.

So suggest some stuff for me plz

Thanks in advance.

MXE is an amazing and very useful substance AFAI can tell.

Being that it has only been available for a little over a year, though, I wouldn't get gung-ho with using it all that regularly. The stuff seems to have quite a long half-life... the endless afterglow. Another disso might be a good control.

Sounds like you figured out the dopamine connection, though.

As for meditation advice, I would say #1 best bet is to find a real chi kung master and take lessons. Next best would be find any simple technique and just start practicing. Even the simplest TM type techniques or just repeating OM can have profound effects. Getting a mind machine or at least finding a copy of Neuro Programmer 3 might be a good bet as well. Simply sitting and breathing with your eyes closed is better than not doing anything. Try counting your breaths. The higher you can go without losing count will indicate progress.

If you decide to try an accupuncturist, maybe he could recommend a chi kung master... or vice versa.

Whether or not meditation helps your neurochemistry (though my bet is on it will), this study http://buddhismis.com/di...istence-magazine-blog/p1 shows that it is clearly worth doing anyway. About a 30% decrease in annual healthcare costs for people practicing meditation. Another study (maybe I will find a link and insert it here*) shows that people who practice 5 years of meditation are biologically 5 years younger than non-meditators on average, and those who practice more are 12 years younger on average! This is phenomenal. This is bigger than vitamins, not smoking, or exercise.

Again, stress and the resultant release of adrenaline, cortisol, and the other glucocorticoids seems to be the culprit here.

[Edit - Didn't find the study, but here is a page that references it http://1stholistic.com/m...on_benefits_physical.htm if I spent more than 2 minutes looking, I could drum up the study, but I have to go now.]

I can relate to your worries and concerns regarding one's own neurotransmitter levels as I went through a very similar period of fretting about my serotonin levels. This was in my teens after my first heavy experiences with MDMA and the after effects were so severe I was on Prozac (SSRI) for a year or so. What I discovered was that all the times I wondered why I was waking up at certain times or why I suddenly felt stimulated for no reason in an MDMA-like manner had nothing to do with my levels of serotonin.

The brain is so unbeleivably complex and its not a simple case of high serotonin causes X, or low dopamine cause Y. I don't mean to sound patronising as I also thought that if the effects of MDMA are due to a massive release of serotonin (and to a minor extent dopamine) then those types of effects are characteristics of having high serotonin levels and if you don't feel like that then you're not getting serotonin release. I've had MDMA experiences which have made me just feel a bit nervous and anxious and those that make me feel ecstatic. I also still believe that speed and cocaine just don't affect me in the same way as most people (don't feel much of anything). People are all wired with different amounts of different neurotransmitters and receptors and that's why these stimulants are so variable in their effects.

Anyway in regards to your original post:




The 5-HTP and tryptophan are converted into serotonin after entering the CNS, however if you are sleeping serotonin is actively converted into melatonin in the pineal gland so this would be unlikely to explain it's rousing you from sleep. The only substance I've heard of this reaction with is high doses of GHB as at these doses it inhibits dopamine release (low doses have the opposite effect and stimulate dopamine release) but while it is inhibited it increases the rate of synthesis. Then a few hrs into sleep you wake up full of energy due to release of this newly synthesised dopamine.





As far as I know caffeine's stimulant effect is due to antagonism at adenosine receptors and there is only little evidence of it interacting with the dopamine system. The above 3 factors may well be linked to serotonin release but I don't think the relationship would be that straightforward. Even the most advanced pharmacologists wouldn't be able to solve this conundrum!

The best advice I can give is how I got over fretting over what and why my brain was doing the things it did was to stop worrying about what my neurotransmitters might be doing as I found I would never be able to work out the solution and by obsessing about it I was making it worse through my own 'placebo effect'. I realised how powerful my mind was in making me believe there was something wrong going on with my neural transmission. By stopping thinking about them so much and focusing more on life events that biochemical mechanisms all the 'issues' seemed to disappear and I was able to get on with my life and sleep normally and stabilise my mood. I went through stages where I felt like my neurotransmitters were low (I believe I am a mild sufferer of seasonal affective disorder) and tried modafinil and ritalin to try and give myself a boost but all they did was make me fret again about what my brain was doing! Since then I have gotten into yoga, meditation and entheogens which have really helped with my obsessive nature, and I feel very happy in my life now. If you obsess about something to a certain point your obsessions will begin to construct an entire reality where the obsessions are the cornerstone of this reality.

@Dr Psychonaut


Wow, great post. You clearly have given this a lot of thought as I have too and I TOTALLY get the obsession risk. I was so obsessed with the answer I was using 5-6 times a week for 4-5 months substances that not only did not give me pleasure but I was not physically craving! (that I could tell at least)

As I said I anticipate maybe a few more experiments and I have a rule of no 2-day-in-a-row experiments with ANYTHING of a large dose.

As an update on the tests you were referring to: I tried taking 5-htp alone both 3-4 hours before and right before sleeping and I did not get any serotonin-rush at all (I woke but that was planned). This still leads me to believe that tryptophan is leading to a serotonin rush or something along with I'd suspect strong dopamine release and I be a ton more of factors.
I will definately take a step back and not fret about what it is but if it continues to be reliable due to it's simplicity: "Meat + Sleep"

As for the caffeine, I was once again by doing a more controlled test than the 2 weeks of caffeine test I referred to in order to conclude the "solution to the caffeine problem" and my recent tests suggest that it was N-Acetyl-L-Tyrosine (L-Tyrosine in the first week) in combination with caffeine, even at very small doses (of caffeine), which are the cause to said dopamine-feeling effects. Once again there is likely a lot more going on but it does seem that caffeine alone (as I felt this morning) even on the 4th day does not give me stimulation though it does not give as significant anxiety, the effects are far from "beneficial"

I really appreciate the advice and I should really kick-myself to get this meditation stuff started. I am still doing Cognative-Exercises daily for my social anxiety so I have been using that as an excuse to put it aside but I will write a big-ass note and put it on my keyboard for after work (leaving in 10 min)
Big-ass-notes are often needed to get me to finally do things.