Hey guys,

I'm just finishing up an altered version of the tek inspired by Chronic's Advice (his username will be accredited at the top of the tek)
But it might take a bit to get around to putting the step in the tek, for now I will simply link to this thread.

He suggested in a couple threads a few months ago spreading the MHRB-vinegar-lime-mush out on a cookie sheet and letting it air-dry. But I figured it would take too long and go against the in-an-afternoon-ness of the Tek.

I re-thought it and figured that I could do it in the oven at 95C with it open and get it done really quick and maybe even at the same time speed up the process using heat as a catalys.
I've tested pure DMT in a 95C oven and it was fine (and a nice smoke ) before so I was confident.


Experiment:
I did it with naptha (Tek 2) so I could see the crystal yield

I used 31g of MHRB. It was soaked vinegar/boiled-water for 20 minutes then 31g lime (a little more than needed) was added and mixed thoroughly.
The mush was transferred to a stainless bread-pan and into the oven at 95C with the door open for about 30 minutes, checking every 5 minutes or so.

Note:I only dried it until it was still crumbly a little moist. This was after observering the fully dryed stuff on the sides REALLY stuck and too a lot of work to scape off. I figure if I used an over-safe container for the original mixing I would be able to fully dry it but that may have resulted in the need to powderize hard-chunks. I'm not sure though.

The crumbly lime-bark was still hot from the oven so the container did not need to be sitting in a boiled-water bath.
About 50ml of re-used naptha (2x washed with vinegar then 1x sodium carbonate wash) was mixed around witht he bark, crushing the soft clumps with the spoon which stirring for 5 minutes.
About 45ml of naptha was poured off, the crumbly-bark of course remained with a small coating of naptha.

By 1:10 the first pull was in the freezer

2 more pulls were done at 2:45 and ~8:00.
the second was about 35ml (some naptha evaporated in the uncovered dish in the freezer) soaked for 5 minutes, a boiled water bath used.

The third was about 90ml of new naptha and was again soaked for 5 minutes.


Results:
My mg-scale broke so I can't measure the yields but having done several 30g extractions in the past I saw exactly what I expected to see from the freezer precipitations.
I really regret not using flat-bottom containers like my 8" baking pan (way too big for 30ml) so I was unable to use a razor to scrape up the DMT

The first pull I'd say was ~85mg, I scraped it up and it was a pile of thick and clumpy off-white chunks a little over the size of a pencil eraser but with A LOT of waxy residue left in the container too.
The second pull was slightly more than the first, clearly just by looking so maybe 100mg or something.

The last one I don't know, maybe someone can estimate from the pictures below. When I tried to scrape it the waxy crystals just coated the bottom and I exclaim "F*** that"
(previously expressed my preference for dissolving DMT and working with liquids as well as my disdain for working with solid DMT)



Pictures:

First pull


Second Pull


Third Pull


Conclusion:
This suggests that oven-drying is a very good method to significantly reduce solvent-loss which was a large annoyance in the Q21Q21 tek, for me at least.
It may speed up the process slightly, maybe if I did 3x 90ml pulls at 1:00, 1:15 and 1:30 it would have been the same yield.
It definitely does not stop the process nor does it destroy the DMT to any significant extent.


Peer Review:
If anyone wants to duplicate this experiment with Tek 1 or Tek 2 and post their results that would be great (and scientific!)

i only wonder how drying it would decrease solvent loss... I mean if its dryer it will absorb more solvent right? or is there something im missing?

I can't state too factually about this because I don't really know the science behind it too well but naptha and d-limonene being non-polar do not swell-up plant material like water would, be it dried-leaves, dried-bark or whatever.
Both naptha and d-limonene can emulsify with a mush or soup quite significantly whereas with a dried material it just surrounds it then pours of, not dissimilar to water off a duck's back.

Another fact that is much more significant when using d-limonene or xylene, though still present in naptha is a slight miscibility with water (or soup or mush)
An example of this is the "brown naptha' ot "otange naptha" problems people can get. This (I've heard) is because though most of the naptha floats like oil on water, a few ml of the black-slurry has mixed into the naptha like alcohol into water.
With d-limonene or xlyene in Q21Q21's tek this is very significant with sometimes upwards of 50% of the solvent either emulsifying with the mush or migrating into the water in the mush in the same way the water migrates to the naptha (but reverse)

I hope that explain my theory on it well enough

Cheers

So do you recommend just pouring the naphtha into the crumbled material and then keeping it in 5-15 minutes and mix it thoroughly couple times like normally in the tek?
Or is it just poured in and let sit for 5-15 minutes?
So the question is how to go about mixing the solvent in. Swirling, mixing, or just pouring in?
I wonder is 5 minutes all that's needed or will 15 minutes increase the yield?

And why did you use 90ml naphtha for the third pull? I thought less naphtha is a good idea for the last pulls...
thanks

I've tried once working with crumbled mixture, but the problem was that when I used about 100ml naphtha for 100g bark, alot of the naphtha actually got absorbed into the mixture and didn't float on top of the mixture as it does when it's wet. And only little got poured off... Did I possibly keep it in for too long or stir the mixture too much(I wonder if this cruble method requires no stirring)?

@ tele

I suppose when the news gets back whether it is a powder or rocks when fully-dried (I could test today but I'm tripping so I won't)
then if it is powder then sealing it and shaking it would be super easy and probably work best.
In either case the whole thing is to get the naptha to contact as much as the mix as possible all around and whatever works with work.

As for the 3rd pull. Well initially the first 2 pulls looked rather small so I though I was still missing A LOT of DMT so I used more. Plus the naptha was down to <30ml and would lose another 5ml or so in the pull... so ya.

As for the last question. I'm not 100% on that, it may be a naptha issue or a lime issue. I highly doubt it is a method issue because wet or dry I see no loss besides the initial in 2 minutes. Past that I've had it sit for 30 minutes and look like the same amount.

OK. For example if one uses 50ml naphtha for 50g bark/50g lime mixture and uses the crumble method, can one expect to see the naphtha on top of the mixture or will it simply be not enough to be seen on top?(after it has been poured in)
And as for the mixing, is swirling enough, that is, moving the mixture bowl in circular motion when the naphtha is in it?
How did you do your mixing?



Do you mean in a big mason jar with a cap on top of it? Is there problems with pressure build up as the naphtha is warm inside?


I'll probably give it a shot and report back.

Well I used 50-45ml of naptha in the test and 31g of MHRB and 31g of lime and after mixing the naptha took a slight yellow tinge and as I tipped the container to pour it out 40-45ml of naptha were easily poured off. Like I said, apart from the initial (which is almost nil due to the drying) the naptha will just float on top and not absorb for 30 minutes or more.
This is of course using CS MHRB, a random locally bought "hydrated lime" and one of 4 camp-fuels that state they contain "naptha petroleum" and evaporate clean. Like I said it SHOULD NOT be a method issue, it is likely a material issue.

As for the mixing, you are REALLY over-complicating it. Just remember The whole idea is to get the naptha to contact as much as the mix as possible all around. Whatever does that will work
True, naptha will produce fumes when warm but STBs do that all the time and usually leaking is the big problem if it is not periodically released.

Good luck (I feel my writing is a little grumpy. Had a disappointing trip yesterday but I still am hungover from it, so sorry bout that)

OK thanks. I'm just asking because I don't want any issues to pop up...

What do you mean by leaking?

So there shouldn't be any problems such as cracking glass or anything else if one uses a big mason jar for mixing the naphtha in by shaking? If I keep the naphtha in a closed jar in a hot water bath for about 12 minutes and shake the jar about three times for about 10-20 seconds, is it a good idea to open the lid after each shaking or will opening it only once be enough? Or should I just cover the jar with a piece of plastic instead of screwing the cap in?

Do you see 100ml per 100g of bark as enough or is there any reason to use more(as you used 45ml for 31g bark)?
I'm going to give it a shot.
Sorry if it's too many questions but I want to make sure I don't mess it up so I can report with proper results.

Thanks, q2121, that answers my question, and makes sense to me.
Im going to be doing this tech soon, with the drying in the oven step, using q2121 tech 2, and i will report my results, thanks guys

This doesn't work if the mixture is bone dry, even if it's moistened by spraying water into the mix. I had to make it wet enough so the mixture would slightly shine from the water. But it still absorbed about 1/3 of the naphtha.
So the question is, how wet should the mix be for the technique to actually work?

I also found out that the crumbly mixture seems to take alot more area from the bowl than when it's wet, so should one use more naphtha?

Tele, I've told you this many times.

Maybe it is a problem with dry air or something but it is NOT the method. It is the environment or the materials.

I'm sorry you are having problems with this, likely using much more naptha than is suggested will be the solution but changing the method is NOT.

I am sincerly sorry that your extractions are doing this but I can tell you I have done this tons of times as well has had maybe 40 or some people post or PM about it without any massive naptha loss issues like yours even though the instructions are general enough to allow for HUGE variation on mixing, consistency (wetness or dryness). So I can say the method is not in question at all.

I hope despite this you still get some good spice at the end though.

Cheers

Honestly the tek is so good after many good results IMO that I don't mind losing 20-40% of the naphtha when mixing it into the wet mixture(even when solvent is expensive). I am just wondering why it doesn't go well with the crumbly consistency. Maybe experimenting further might help... Will post update if I get it to work. Maybe 2ml solvent per 1g bark would do the trick.

OK so after experimenting I found out that mixture that's thick enough to make holes with your fork to, seems to be most naphtha efficient for me. Soupy consistency can absorb much more. With the crumbly method I could not get it to work...

Q21: May I ask have you experimented with the amount of stirring included? I've found three stirs for about 20-30 seconds each 5 minutes is good, but can I get equal results with less stirring? As I think the stirring might absorb some of the naphtha...

Glad you're finding what works for you.

As for your Q:
I just stirred almost constantly (maybe went to grab a container for 20-30 sec once or twice) for 4-5 minutes on the experiment on all 3 pulls. I have seen no benifit from greater than 5 minutes on any of my experiments whether naptha or d-limonene.
In fact I might even challenge it down to 2 or 3 in future experiments

So if i understand correctly, you are not supposed to have the naptha in there long at all? just put it in there and stir it a few times and let sit 5 min then pour off? becuase when i have done this, i let the naptha sit longer, perhaps this resulted in some loss.
thannks again!

Well the biggest loss is time, and that isn't much.

Maybe 0.5-5ml of naptha might evaporate if you wait 15-20 minutes but the naptha should be plentiful enough for that not to matter as far as yield.

The point is just that just like if you coated some peanuts with salt and put them in a bowl, as long as you make sure the water touches all the nuts' surfaces then the salt is going to be dissolved very quickly. Same thing with DMT and (mostly, and I assume completely) dried-lime-bark.

Eventually the water would swell up the peanuts similar to the d-limonene or naptha swelling up the mushy/soupy lime-bark, but that is why you dry.

OK, so I got this to work.
What I found out is that it requires a bit more naphtha, maybe about 1.5ml per 1g of bark(because crumbly consistency takes more area than wet mixture), and the consistency shouldn't be bone dry. Stirring it in the slightly moist crumbles for 5 minutes with pre-heated naphtha does the trick.
I've also noticed as the consistency is crumbly, it's kind of easy to get some crumbles fall into your freeze precip container when pouring off the naphtha, and the crumbles are easy to remove by pouring the naphtha into another container, then removing the crumbles, and then back to the original freeze precipitation container.
So this really works well, thanks alot q21q21 and chronic, now the tek is perfect without the previous naphtha loss issue.

I just tried a similar experiment.
I took the crumbly stuff from last time and 200g with only 1 pull done on it that is 2 months+ old.

I blended it up into a powder then added 200ml d-limonene.
The result was 0ml to be poured off, I quickly chose to add some water which definately helped. Despite there being 230g of MHRB and 200+g lime I still managed to get around 140-150ml out AFTER adding the water.

So bone-dry = baaaaad

I did 2 pulls and 2 vinegar pulls from them each and I have ~500ml or so of quite-yellow vinegar which is very good. Last time my pulls were much more pale than them so I anticipate a good yield.
Can't give total on the 200g because way-too-high (weed offered randomly by middle-age engrish-speaking neighbor during break) friend trying the extraction tossed the vinegar (containing DMT-acetate) down the sink.

Either way it seems that our results with the crumbly mixture. I'll edit the tek.... eventually.

This is silly and too complex. I solved the solvent loss issue two extractions in, and told you about it. It's flawed from step one, not step 3.

Sorry if I missed it. I just quickly browsed through all your posts and I didn't see any PMs from you.

What I found was



In response to a thread.

In my experience the problem is that if you put in 100ml of naptha then you can get anywhere from 0-60ml or so when you pour it out.
D-limonene is even worse for this.
The drying seems to help quite a bit but I am not going to change it to a mandatory step but rather a choice of A or B

Could you care to elaborate on what exactly you meant in your last post? I am interested.