I was watching Question Time (a prgramme in the UK, that has politicians, and political commentators answering questions froma live studio audience), and during a discussion on Greece, and the general sorry state of the Euro, a man in the audience made the following statement (of which I will paraphrase) :

'The answer to the worlds current economic crisis, is for all governments to revert to square one (i.e Cancellation of all world debt), which would return balance to the world.'

This statement really got me thinking. Surely things like 'markets' and 'growth' are really there to keep the rich rich, to ensure global hegemony of a few elites. Thus the wealth of nations, and the world as a whole, is taken out of the hands of the people (you and I), and we are all made slaves to money, and to the aforementioned elite. The current system seems to benefit chiefly a select few (and those that keep quiet and go along with it are also meagrly rewarded, in the prosperous West at least).

Surely the reason people are starving in the world, that has plenty of resources for everyone, is BECAUSE of debt. It is also the reason for depressions and seeming economic metdown, even in the most priveledged of Western democracies - mass unemployment, mass under-education etc etc and so forth...

The people that reap the benefits of people being in debt, and so pay interest, is a very priveledged, very few.

The current 'market' driven system is ludicrous. In fact when you take a step back is sheer nonsense. Very insidious nonsesnse. It is also responsible for the deaths of millions worldwide.

I mean to ask, can anyone think of constructive steps, to making the dream (of returning to square one) a reality? I am aware this cannot be done overnight. However, I think productive steps towards this end is essential, potentially to our future as a human race.

Please discuss.

Cancellation of world debt would be to demolish the entire monetary system. Money greases the trade wheel between nations. Nations need trade. It makes everyone better off. Economics 101. I would rather have currency than to have to find a loaf of bread to trade for my kool-aid. It will take a good idea and a whole lot of work to get us out of this hole we've been digging for 100 years.

The best idea I think is the whole Venus Project thing along with its resource based economy, but every nation will have to give up its banner for the good of humanity first. Maybe it will happen, but people are inherently selfish so good luck convincing the elite to give up there wealth for the good of everyone else. I guess we will see what happens due to all the recent societal upheaval.

It is an answer all right. It would end the current economic crisis and exchange it for an economic disaster. Everything is based on money. What do you think will happen if we take all the money away? Things will cease to function. It's going to take a lot more than ridding ourselves of the corrupt monetary system to get us out of this mess.

I am saying go back to square one - a clean slate. Or would you prefer to sit back and benefit from the hunger of millions?

Also, 'people are inherently selfish' is nonsense...

Im not even saying 'get rid of money'. Keep money, but let all the conutries that have historically plundered by Western imperialists, start again debt free.

It is the response of any sane person, with even a basic grasp of moralty.( ie not your precious bankers).

'Money greases the trade wheel between nations' - it also is responsible for the deaths of millions, within those nations. Trade in what? AK47s?

How do you erase debt when every bit of money that exists is debt? Hell, the debt is larger than the nonexistent money. haha. What plan would you propose?

I agree the inherently selfish thing was a bit much. I got a little ahead of myself. But it would take cooperation which might not come easily from the ones truly benefiting.

Money isn't the cause of murder; greed is. Get rid of money; get rid of greed? I'm just saying it is simple economics that trade allows countries to live better that if left only to their own resources. Trade is easier when their is a "middle-man" or currency.

I dont know what plan! Thats what I am asking.

It would take co operation, yes...it would also take everyone in the West to wake up and realise the only reason they dominate currently is from the ruthless murdering and pilaging of less militarily advanced nations. That is all - the Wests dominance is based in murder.

When the Western imperialists left, they left the countries to fend for themselves (opening doorways to corruption etc). This corruption turns to civil war - The West ARMS BOTH SIDES, the countries are destroyed, and need 'bailing out' - that debt is then repayable with interest - the countries are effectively eternally crippled - no matter what they do they cant get out of debt, so they sell off all their resources. The countries resources then cannot help the people.

The resources go directly to rich Western nations, for us to have so much food we are killing ourselves through obesity. We, apparently, are JUST FINE with this.

This is all because of debt. Debt and a feeling of superiority (based SOLELY on where we happened to be born).

I dont know the answer, I would like constructive brainstorming on the issue though. Hence why I am asking The Nexus...

No amount of economist rhetoric can justify the deplorable state we are in .

Every great empire was/is based on murder. I don't think we can blame the West for everything though.

The economist rhetoric can explain. I said nothing about justifying. haha. We need an entire new system I think.

I was just playing the devil's advocate for a moment, not even well I might add. I'd love to hear other ideas on the subject. Like I mentioned earlier, I'm a fan of Fresco's technologically advanced resource-based economy.

I think everyone returning to day one is a logical and ethical way forward. At the moment it looks like a load of rats chasing their tails, under the precious shroud of economic jargon, while the ship is sinking.

Clearly the current 'way things are', just isnt working.

This is a simplistic line of thinking that is all too easy to fall into, and it seems to come up a lot around here: this notion that if you have a problem, the best solution is to just up sticks and run away, to disregard any possibility of constructive reform and opt for a convenient nihilism.

The solution to any crisis, and particularly this 'end crisis of capitalism', is not to simply hit the reset button. Would you leave it for our great grandchildren to figure out when it comes around again? Or rather, should we take responsibility for our place in history and strive to do our part in solving this maddening karmic puzzle? Erasing all world debt* goes no way toward bettering the ways in which we organise our civilisation, anymore than nuking the planet clean of life goes toward solving climate change.



* There is much debt that absolutely should be outright abolished however, that being odious debt, vulture funds, etc. These are the factors that overwhelmingly cripple Third World development, and their existence is unequivocally criminal, but as they are in the service of First World economies (of which I imagine we are almost all culpable parties, BTW) they are largely allowed to persist.

Yes that is basically what I am getting at. And I think if we carry on the way we are going, World War 3 may start, and we may not have any grandchildren which to speak to.

How long is it til we say enough is enoug?. We need to take responsibilty, and perhaps be prepared to give things up, in terms of fairness.

I am aware that this is all highly idealistic - please dont confuse me with someone that thinks people will give up their mansions and yachts for the sake of a better world.

I am also looking for constructive things to do. If I dont have hope that this can be changed, step by step, I really would have no joy in living at all. I refuse to accept 'this is how it is and always shall be.' Apathy is far too of an easy road also.

This is exactly what I am getting at, BTW. Yet I also cant escape the suspicion people are so against this idea, because it would mean losing a degree of luxury - for a better and more fairer world. A sacrifice worth making, IMO.

This is assuming we have grandchilren - many children in Africa, for example, dont grow to adulthood, let alone have children, let alone grandchildren etc etc...

From preventable disease - the resources would pay for the medicine, if it wasnt going into the pockets of rich Western countries, through debt.

I also don't get it why this is not a feasible solution, it seems so simple.

What would change if all the countries in the world in an instant nullified their debt claims?

I assume nothing. It's virtual money anyway, an idea in our heads (and computers). Things would just go on as usual.

I don't know much if anything about economics. but what happens when all the countries
of the planet are in so much debt to who ever( who is it they all owe it to anyway?)and
none of them can ever pay back.

do we just have an eternal recession. please forgive me i really just don't understand at all.

reset sounds good to me.

"Debt" exists, generally because it's behind real world creations. If you remove debts, you have to remove those creations, imo. Otherwise, you're not really going back to square one as there are countless real world goods that exist in the hands of certain individuals as a direct result of debt. It's kinda like the people on those repo shows who throw temper tantrums about "their" goods being taken away.

lol. So much economics fail in here.

If all debt was for some inconceivable reason to be expunged, the global economy would be obliterated. That may sound cool if you're 10 years old and like the sound of living off squirrels in your treehouse, but the reality would be considerably less fun - think billions starving, unprecedented refugee migrations, the complete collapse of trading markets, then governments, and a halt to all industry and other forms of human activity on the planet not immediately concerned with personal survival. Nobody would have a job. All money would be meaningless, because money is a contextual symbol of value, and that context has just been eliminated.

So yeah, keep championing this lunacy if you consider the Stone Age preferable to modern complexities, and would rather humanity just continued to be mired in suffering rather than actually sort our problems out like adults.

No one is saying get rid of money. I think that if you cancelled debt ALL CITZENS OF THE WORLD WOULD BE ON AN EQUAL FOOTING FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE THE CREATION OF MONEY. There hasnt even always been money - are you saying everything humanity has acheived is based on money?

That is ludicrous. Humanity has acheived great things through co-operation - from good people doing good things. This would only increase - there would be more people to do good things, as they wouldnt all be starving, or living under tyrannical regimes.

I fail to see why you are so tied to the current system, when IT CLEARLY ISNT WORKING (for the vast majority of people, its clearly working just fine for you, so who cares yea? ). If you are happy living your sweet priveledged life, clinging to your precious 'economics', ignoring the vast majority of people that live below the poverty line, then thats your call. I am not happy with that, and I refuse to just accept it blindly as 'way it goes', 'survival of the fittest' (which is a fallacy anyway as priveledge is based on luck of birth to a large extent), 'nothing I can do about it so I will just ignore it'.

People would have jobs, and people wouldnt need to work as hard. It would also be a more caring world, I believe, based on the endless strife caused by the scrabbling for enough money to feed and clothe oneself.

And I find your tone frankly quite insulting, confrontational, and typical of the rich protecting their selfish interests, that are the cause of the problems in the world. If you want to just swallow Zeitgeist whole thats your call also.

P.S You are not being constructive at all in giving ideas to help anything, so give me an alternative that is better than the cancellation of debt, and Im all ears.