G

Perhaps I was overly sarcastic and dickish in my response to you... but I did begin to get the feeling that you were being smug and condescending after your 3rd or 4th post treating me like a moron.

Please don't blow it out of proportion as that is just the way we talk where I am from. We are more sarcastic than most, and enjoy a little shit talking.

The non verbal aspect of forum posting makes it difficult to hear the smile on my face. Please read everything I write as written with a smile and a wink.

Having said that, I disagree totally with your conjecture.

I am satisfied when I finish a ski run and satified while doing the run... but that doesn't mean I have to sit down and take a break. I am capable of being satisfied on the way back up for another run and again on the next run down. I am also satisfied when I feel like going home. And I am satisfied when I get home with that warm fuzzy glow. Satisfaction for me is not only present at the end or goal of an endeavor, but all throughout the experience.

I am satisfied while hiking, not just when I get to the top of the mountain.

The same goes for surfing, scuba diving, hang gliding, astral projecting and orgasms. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with multiple orgasms, but there is no feeling of dissatisfaction that leads one to desire a multiple O. It is just more of a good thing. Also, with tantric yoga, men can have multiple orgasms as well... without even ejaculating. Thus, no comedown, no tiredness... just more orgasmic glory.

I might be satisfied with my music on 4, but that doesn't mean I won't turn it up and still be satisfied with the more intense experience of listening to it on 9. Your interpretation of SWIM's experiences is by definition judgemental. This is not a terribly bad thing, but you do have your pre-conceived notions that you are bringing to the table.

It is mostly semantics, but I think we have a difference of opinion that won't be resolved.

I have articulated (somewhat haphazardly) a method that works for SWIM to achieve some very remarkable states. A multi peak spice journey is not comparable to simply smoalking moar or taking aya. It is its own glorious thing. Something unique and distinct from anything else SWIM has experienced. Adding nitrous or another tryptamine to the mix has its own unique aspects that can not be simulated without the balloon.

If you don't feel like trying out SWIM's method, no one is forcing you. You coming onto my thread to basically neg on the idea, put down the motives for wanting to even try it, and basically call into question the quality of SWIM's experiences as a whole is... provocative. IMNSHO.

Anyway, I still like you. I've learned plenty from your posts. I hope this little tete te doesn't evince any longterm bad feelings.


Peace amigo.

I don’t think you’re defining “satisfaction” properly. The first definition of “satisfy” that popped up when I looked at wiktionary was “to do enough”, “to meet (needs)”, “to fulfill (wishes, requirements)”.

If you are motivated to do something over and over, then by definition, you aren’t satisfied. You may feel many different things – joy, pleasure, happiness, ecstasy - but satisfaction isn’t one of them. Satisfaction with respect to a behavior implies demotivation to continue engaging in the behavior.

For example, if you are satisfied with listening to music at volume “4”, then why would you choose to turn the volume up to “9”? What would motivate the behavior?

Satisfaction implies a lack of desire. It is not a state one experiences when seeking fulfillment, but rather a state one experiences when fulfillment is achieved.

I disagree. Satisfaction http://dictionary.refere....com/browse/satisfaction

Notice that satisfaction is synonymous with enjoyment, pleasure, comfort and antonymous with displeasure and discontent. Gratification and fulfillment are clearly key to the concept, but the 3rd definition in the Wold English Dictionary states:

3. the pleasure obtained from such fulfilment

One can clearly be satisfied in the moment without necessaritly being demotivated. Something can be satisying by virtue of the pleasure you get from it. This is a regularly used context for the word. In fact, if you have no pleasure from an activity but are merely demotivated to continue the activity, the word satisfied is not appropriate. You could be bored. You could be irritated or displeased.

Furthermore, fulfilment can be spiritual or emotional, physical or achievement based. I can be fulfilled, gratified, and (by definition) satisfied while pulling a 360 on a snowboard. This has no bearing on whether I decide to continue snowboarding or try for another jump... perhaps a 540. There is no requirement that if I do a perfect jump that I become demotivated.

I am frequently satisfied with things that I continue to do. Music on 4 is a satisfying experience, but so is music on 9. They are not mutually exclusive. I can decide to add more hot sauce to my food without being the least bit unsatisfied with its current taste. Curiosity fuels experimentation and growth.

By your logic, happy kids would never grow into adults. Why should they? I drink a satisfying glass of water. Does that mean I can't have another?

Your definition is too linear and not backed up by common usage.

No offense.

Fulfillment is pleasurable. Yes – I agree with this.

I’m not saying that DMT experiences aren’t satisfying as they progress. They most often are. The reason this came up was because you said you like to re-dose immediately after an experience begins winding down.

If the satisfaction remains, then why re-dose?

To use your music volume example – yes, music on 4 might be very nice, and so is music on 9. But the question is this: If you are currently satisfied listening to music at 4, what would motivate you to change the volume to 9?

^

Curiosity. The joy of diversity. The thrill of the ride.

Why does Baskin Robbins have 31 flavors? Wouldn't a great vanilla do?

If you have a satifying bite of ice cream, why take another?

MOAR SATISFACTION

This isn't really such a difficult concept, is it?

You might not care for a multi peak trip. Other people might. Do you feel compelled to insist that such people are unsatisfied?

Why would anyone ever need to smoalk DMT a second time if they were satisfied in the finite way you describe? Surely you are not suggesting that if people are ever truly satisfied with a given action or activity that they are finished for life?

You said in one of your posts that the demotivation for you lasts a specific period of time. A different interval for sex as for DMT and whatnot. Is the fact that you become remotivated to do something a testament to the imperfection of your previous satisfaction?

Personally, I am rarely ever moved to demotivation with something that satisfies me. I move on to something else not out of any forced demotivation, but rather an anticipation of other satisfaction in another venue.

You’re not really answering the question. It’s true that diversity and variety are pleasurable, but what about the example: What would motivate you to change the volume from 4 to 9? If your answer is “just to experience something different”, then this implies a dissatisfaction with the volume at 4. A desire to experience change. Boredom resulting from the lack of variety. Whatever the reason, at its heart is dissatisfaction with the way things are.

Here’s my hypothesis: It is your dissatisfaction with the waning of a pleasurable DMT experience that leads you to re-dose. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with this. In fact, it often makes perfect sense to take this approach.

But what I’ve said is that it is possible to have DMT experiences that do not leave one dissatisfied as the experience wanes. To the contrary, the satisfaction grows and sustains itself for long periods. When in this state, re-dosing makes absolutely no sense.

We may just have to agree to disagree.

I edited my above post and it contains a bit more than your quote, but I don't think either of us will come around to the other's point of view.

I maintain that it is not dissatisfaction that motivates an action to increase satisfaction, but rather the satisfaction itself. The glory of the doing inspires one to maintain that doing. I keep riding my bike as long as I find it satisfying. Being satisfied with the feeling of bike riding in the first mile doesn't keep me from riding 10 more.

You ask why I would turn my music up? To hear it louder. It doesn't necessarily imply a dissatifaction with the current volume. Dissatifaction with a low volume COULD be a reason for turning it up... but it is clearly not the ONLY possible reason. Personally, I turn it up most frequently when I am EXTREMELY SATISFIED with a song. My response to satisfaction is to indulge it and extend it.

You will never convince me that the only satisfactory DMT trip is one where you don't want to extend it. Things are not so black & white as you portray them. I can have a vaiety of different reasons for any given behaivior... or even none at all. Just going with the flow.

Who knows? Maybe the entities direct SWIM to supplement dose so they can chat with him longer...

You yourself said “I keep riding my bike as long as I find it satisfying.” So what causes you to stop riding your bike? What causes a change in your behavior? You imply that you stop riding when you no longer find it satisfying, don’t you? To no longer find something satisfying which moments earlier was satisfying implies dissatisfaction, does it not?

Back to the music example. You say that you turn it up because you want it louder. Well, the question you evaded answering is “why do you want the music louder if you are perfectly satisfied with the current volume?” And I agree there are countless other reasons for turning up the music, but all of them boil down to the same question: “If your current state is a state of satisfied perfection, then why would you want to change your state?” You suggest that the answer is to reach an even higher state. But this implies that the current state isn’t high enough – that there is dissatisfaction with the current state. Do you see how even in the midst of ecstasy it is possible to be dissatisfied?

You say “My response to satisfaction is to indulge it and extend it.”, but that’s incorrect. It is reasonable to want to extend and indulge pleasure, but satisfaction, although pleasurable, is not the same thing as pleasure. Desire to extend satisfaction implies dissatisfaction with one’s current state. By definition, there is no desire to extend satisfaction, because as soon as the desire arises, there is dissatisfaction. Desire to extend satisfaction negates the satisfaction that it seeks to extend! Isn’t this clear?

Have you never had a DMT experience which was so perfectly satisfying that there was no need or desire to extend it?

G2... Your point about the bike is completely counter to your point about spice.

On the one hand you say that dissatisfaction makes one stop riding which actually confirms my point that satisfaction causes one to continue on in the satisfying activity. Then you try and apply this logic to the concept that continuing to push forward in a spice journey is a form of dissatisfaction.

No, your point is not clear. It is simplistic. No offense.

These are not black & white things. We have multiple motivations for our actions. If you can not imagine that one can be satisfied with something, and have that satisfaction lead to pursuing it further then you can not. I am tired of coming up with analogies. You glossed over most of them anyway. Also I asked you a number of questions that you never answered as well.

It matters not. We're going round in circles. You are now insisting that changing a steady state implies dissatisfaction (ala music analogy) AND that continuing the steady state implies dissatisfaction (ala bike riding analogy). My point is less linear. It is that change or not change could have a variety of reasons... not the least of which being the satisfaction itself.

I thought I made it clear that I turn up my music because I am satisfied by the song. Not that I am dissatisfied with the volume, but in order to intensify the satisfaction. It is possible to start or stop an action without any type of dissatisfaction playing a part. There are plenty of viable reasons.

Pushing on to higher peaks with spice is not motivated by dissatisfaction in SWIM's case... rather it is an expression of how satisfied SWIM actually is. Sure, SWIM has had spice journeys that were not supplemented, allowed to dissipate and left him feeling jazzed and satisfied for a good time to come. Pretty much this is always the case with the last journey of the night or whatever. What you seem to not get is that one can remain satisfied in whatever one is doing or while changing the experience. Satisfaction, in and of itself, does not have to be limited to ending an experience... or any starting or maintaing one for that matter.

Yogis and Kung Fu masters tend to maintain a state of perfect satisfaction whatever they are doing.

I didn’t say anywhere that sustaining a steady state implies dissatisfaction. I’ve been saying all along just the opposite:

You say that as a DMT experience wanes, you have a desire to continue it. What is the source of that desire? I say it is a dissatisfaction with the waning. It is a desire to return to a prior state. A dissatisfaction with a current state relative to a prior state.

You said “I thought made it clear that I turn up my music because I am satisfied by the song. Not that I am dissatied with the volume, but in order to intensify the satisfaction.”

Your statement is a logical contradiction. On the one hand, you’re saying you’re satisfied by the song. On the other, you’re saying the intensity of the current level of satisfaction is unsatisfactory and that there is a desire to increase that intensity. So you are satisfied with the song, but dissatisfied with the intensity of satisfaction of the song. You are saying you’re both satisfied with the song and dissatisfied with it. This is a contradiction.

I honestly think you don’t have a grasp on the definition of satisfaction. You keep referring to it in a way that suggests you define it as synonymous with pleasure. It is not.

One does not “push to higher peaks” when one is at the summit.

So you would agree that the last journey of the night is somehow different from the previous journeys of the night? If not, then it wouldn’t be the last journey. There is a reason you make it the last journey.

sounds like it could work just don't fish out.

I can't buy a GVG cuz i'm broke, but i can buy a balloon for nothing at the store across the street Not that i can compare a balloon to the GVG, having never tried either (i love my bong)... but i do understand how this method could be beneficial for people with poor lungs and inaccurate smoking devices. I bet smoking a changa spliff would take one further if a balloon was involved.

Thank you DoingKermit. I hope this method helps you.

G2

You are tenacious... that is for sure.

One more time. Satisfaction is NOT the same as being sated. I pointed you early on to texts that made it clear that "satisfaction" is synonymous with enjoyment and pleasure. You continue to insist that it is not. I will not argue the matter further. Use the word however you like. You must be perceptive enough to realize that millions of people use this word in the way I am using it, though. To derive satisfaction from an activity can imply the kind of pleasure and gratification that has nothing to do with demotivation. This is beyond debate.

It can be used in the very narrow and limited fashion you insist upon, but that is only one aspect or nuance of the word. This is why dictionaries have multiple definitions. I think your insistance that dissatisfaction is the ONLY reason one would change a steady state is ludicrous. When I visit a beautiful place like Yosemite, I am thoroughly satisfied the entire time by every vista I encounter. Does this mean that if the view of Yosemite Valley is satisfying, that I can not go see Half Dome? Or that if I am satisfied with my view of the Wawona tree that I can't continue to explore the Mariposa Grove?

What you are insisting on is so ridiculously narrow that I can't honestly think you believe it. Maybe you do. I do not.

Explorations into Hyperspace are like explorations of Yosemite... only exponentially so. Moving from one peak experience to another has nothing whatsoever to do with dissatisfaction; it is simply that there is more to explore. It is curiosity. It is the pioneering spirit. It is the joy of trying to consume more of a good thing.

According to your logic, why smoalk DMT in the first place? You must be dissatisfied with your normal perception. The first time you smoalked the spice, you had no idea what was in store for you (regardless of how much you read about it). You could not have had any solid concept that any dissatisfaction you may have been experiencing with your perception would be solved or satisfied in Hyperspace... you smoalked out of CURIOSITY.

Do not underestimate the power of curiosity my friend. Nearly every push into the unknown, every leap forward the species has made was sparked by curiosity. Sometimes there is a vein of dissatisfaction as well, but curiosity is basically always present. The feeling of "Hmmmm... let's see what this will do." Is not a dissatisfied state.

You DID try and convert the bike analogy into the opposite of your own argument. I did not do that for you. I said I continue riding because riding satisfies me at that moment. YOU said why would I continue to ride if I was satisfied.

Life is not simply an on or off, binary setup with satisfaction and dissatisfaction as being the only motivations. Life is complex and multilayered. There are billions of reasons for why someone may or may not do something and often they are mixed together in very specific and unique amalgamations. Personally, I am very rarely dissatisfied. It figures very little into my rationales for any action or even for stopping any action. I am much more driven by curiosity, thrill, joy, etc.

You ask if the final journey of the night is different from the rest... SWIM says no. Obviously it, being spice... every second is different from the last, but there is nothing inherently more or less satisfying about any spice adventure. They are all mind blowing and completely satisfying in every millisecond. Usually beyond satisfying in the sense that they exceed and surpass any expectation for satisfaction that you could have.

Nonetheless, it is possible to be curious about what lies beyond. You may think that your peaks represent the pinnacle and highest possible state you could ever experience. This is simply not true. There is always a higher state. Always another peak to surmount. You think you stand on the Everest of your spice adventures, but then they fold your world inside out and now the Mariana Trench is the new peak. Then you get there, and are sucked into a vortex that dumps you out on the other side of the galaxy in a place were even the lowest point is light years past what you thought was the peak. We are talking about spice. There is no such thing as an ultimate peak. Talking about satisfaction in a realm where every second surpasses your entire frame of reference utterly, and each new wonder blows your mind anew... is prosaic.

There are many reasons to turn up your music. Dissatisfaction with volume is only one of a billion. If you can't see my point by now, maybe you never will... maybe you are too attached to your existing conception to even attempt to see past it... or you simply don't like to cede points in a debate and will hold your ground forever. Tenacity.

Sorry your balloon idea wasn't received better. I personally like n2o with other things and can't really imagine how it would affect or otherwise influence a spice trip. I'd be down to give it a shot.

As far as conserving the spice goes, I think that this is brilliant. As a long time smoker it takes me a few hits and I can't hold it in like I used to. A balloon makes a lot of sense especially when combined with the n2o. I'm sure it would take some getting used to where the handling everything is concerned but it's definitely nifty regardless.

Thanks for sharing. ♥

Thx MC. I hope it helps you. It isn't as complicated in practice as it seems when you first envision it.

I just want to say that I actually really like Gibran2. I am often in total agreement with his posts. I find him to be a wealth of information and a serious asset to the Nexus. In fact, a while back I even put one of his quotes up on the "memorable quotes" thread: https://www.dmt-nexus.me...&m=271283#post271283

I am not sure why this thread has become a lengthy debate on what the definition of satisfaction is. I don't deny my part in this somewhat silly endeavor. I like to debate, actually. Who knows why this touched a nerve. It is basically just a silly balloon trick that heads have been using for decades and decades... try it... leave it... who cares, right?

I do think that the GVG fanatics tend to be touchy if anyone questions the dogma that the GVG is the Ultimate Smoalking Device... period. We get it. You love your expensive pipe. It IS rather cool. But, it is just a glass pipe with a ceramic plug. Get over it. There are thousands of vaporization devices. I know a bro who vapes with a Volcano (I think it is a bit of a waste, but whatever).

I was curious about the Nebulizing technique that has a sticky on this "Other" MOA board. Somehow, that never seemed to go anywhere though. More than 2 years down the road, I guess we would have heard if someone got it to work. Too bad, that seemed nifty.

I've thought about doing this myself, being that you've had success with it I'll give it a shot. I think dmt combined with N20 in a balloon would make for a very interesting experience.

Personally I've never been able to inhale smoke or vapor and exhale nothing and have no idea how some of you guys are doing that.

Perhaps I’ve been a bit too tenacious?

Part of the problem here is that we are using different definitions for words that have multiple definitions. This is as much a problem with language as it is a problem with my use of language. One of the words I seem to be defining differently is “dissatisfaction”. As I define it, there is no negative connotation.

The other problem is that this is a thread about smoking techniques, not scientific/philosophical discussions of human motivation. Threads often tend to meander a bit, but this one, thanks to me, has jumped into a whole new sub-forum! This issue is large enough for a thread of its own (and before I got too deep into it, I should have started a new thread). So at this point, I’m not sure what to do!

So as I always say – when in doubt, dig yourself into a deeper hole:

One point that I was trying to make, and I’m not sure if you can agree with it, is that whenever we feel motivated to change our state, there is inherent dissatisfaction with our current state. Maybe “dissatisfaction” isn’t the right word. But what I’ve been trying to say is that a change in state implies that something caused the change. How would we go about describing that cause?

To move from a “good” state to a “better” state implies that, at least relative to the better state, the good state wasn’t good enough. For if it was good enough, then there would be no motivation to change states. Does that make sense? We compare the state we are in to a potential future state, and if we find the future state to be superior, we attempt to change states. If not, we remain in the current state.

So getting back to my original remarks: The waning of the psychedelic state is itself a new state. It is a state that we don’t choose to enter – our biochemical homeostatic mechanisms choose it for us. Anyhow, at some point the current state is the “waning” state.

In your case, the waning state, when compared to the prior psychedelic peak state, is the less preferable state, and so you boost yourself back into the psychedelic peak state. There’s nothing wrong with that, and I never expressed this to be judgmental.

What I’ve been saying is that it is possible to have experiences where the waning state, when compared to the prior state, is not less preferable. As a result, there is no desire or motivation to return to the prior state.

^

It's cool Gibran2. Like your namesake, I tend to agree with most of what you say.

Furthermore, I understood your point from the get go. I do not agree with it... but it is moot for the most part, as it IS a semantic debate more than anything.

I will only reiterate that my feeling is that it is possible (and quite common for me) to change from a state that I am satisfied with to another (which may or may not be as satisfying) for reasons of my curious nature and a desire to know more. I am willing to take the chance that I will change from a satisfied state to one that is less to my liking. In so doing, I expand my knowledge base... and increase my ability to make decisions in the future that result in my satisfaction.

You will say that I am thus dissatisfied with my current lack of knowing. I disagree proactively.

I know that I will never know all there is to know about this infinite playground. This doesn't cause me dissatisfaction as it is a given. If there was any dissatisfaction in this, it would be (for all intents and purposes) a permanent thing that can never be mitigated... thus it doesn't really fit into our debate as much as it speaks to the ground of our existence as finite beings.

I wish you well, my man. Always a pleasure to cross foils with someone who isn't afraid to take it to the limit, and obviously enjoys his reparté as much as I.

Blessings.