I saw the same thing happen to SWIM after drinking Caapi Ayahuasca. It was my third time drinking and his fourth, we drank 200g of Caapi and 300mg spice dissolved in orange juice each. I am aware this is a very high dose, we worked our way up to it and it seemed like the appropriate dose at the time. The last coherent thing he said about 30 mins after drinking was "I'm cold" and he looked pale. Shortly after he was unresponsive and thrashing around, his legs moving like he was walking but he was sitting in a chair. I thought it may have been a seizure or convulsions at the time, but after 20 minutes I started to realize it was just the Ayahuasca really taking hold of him. I was very scarred for him during that first 20 minutes. I was loaded myself and there was no way could I have driven for help if I needed to, and we were in the mountains miles down unmarked dirt roads, so I couldn't have called for help either.

I knew no one had ever died from Ayahuasca, but in the back of my mind I was thinking it could have been a completely separate medical condition that just so happened to occur at the same time. It lasted for about 40 minutes and he was able to communicate another hour later. He didn't remember anything, just a confusing unfocused trip. After some research I found that this is a common occurrence with larger doses and the only thing you can do is make sure that the person does not hurt themselves.

agreed. And I also don't reload without clearing the vapor genie. I once got my hit plus the bulk of the prior persons hit and went into a white-out for about 5minutes...not a white light experience, but more like a 2D white prison that seemed to last for years. I sat up in bed gasping for air almost 5 minuteds into the experience. I was at the time tripping harder than I had ever before. It turned out fine, but it was very uncomfortable for a LONG while in my mind.

to much is to much. You only need as much as you need. more is not better with this drug. IMHOl.

holy cow! thats a huge dose of aya for sure! that must have been quite a scary situation and you were coherent enough to understand what was going on is amazing at that dosage.
if you dont mind me asking why did you feel that was necessary? you wrote it seemed appropriate, was that from lack of research or were you given poor information?

I AGREE. I clear it out almost always in one hit, that is, apply proper temperature until no more vapor comes out, therefore I know I've got it all in...

We drank a 200g Caapi / 200mg Spice each about a month before at SWIM's house. And the time before that our brew was 150g/150mg. The experience was great both times but we both felt like we could stand more each time. We probably should have notched it up to 250g spice instead of 300g, but we were on a trip in the mountains and we both wanted to make sure we took a committed dose.

It came on faster for him, so I was still somewhat sober when all this started. I was so focused on him when my trip started coming on strong, I didn't think about anything else but his well being the whole time.

I think your buddy had a seizure. I am an epileptic and this exact thing happens to me when I have a grand mall. I have heard of people having seizures on dmt before

It was sort of a big jump to increase both the caapi and DMT simultaneously. A problem with upping dosages is that the dosage you may have used last time could have been a little stronger, but had you taken the same dose again, there's nothing saying that it wouldn't be much more intense for any number of reasons that could be beyond your control. When upping oral dosages, I would increase only the MAOI or only the DMT. If it turns out that 200g caapi and 150mg DMT is not enough or 150g caapi and 200mg DMT is not enough, then I would take the next step and bring the other up a bit.

You know, I wasn't sure if I ought to talk about this or not; but when I saw this thread I thought perhaps it might be relevant.

Although my religion is basically animist, and I occasionally practice magic (mostly healing and protective bundles for friends, help them find work, stuff like that) -- even so, I don't know that I ever actually believed in "conjuration". You know, do a ritual, call up a spirit of some kind. At least, not for informal practitioners.

However, I had a particular passage in a psytrance set that I really liked to listen to when smoking spice. (the first part of 6/04, if you're interested.) And I had developed a little personal practice of calling on the STME, just because it's really hard for me to break through.

And it got to be where every time I did this, the same thing would happen: I would see shifting, darting shadows in my peripheral vision, I would sense someone behind me and beside me, I would actually feel taps on my shoulder, and a strong feeling of being encouraged with strong anticipation; kind of like a frat boys' drinking game. You must understand that this was BEFORE I actually smoked the spice; and also that I am a fairly analytical and rational person, I don't have a fascination with woo-woo stuff as one of my friends calls it.

And this would kind of creep me out a little. The feeling overall wasn't quite sinister but -- dangerous? Like messing with something much bigger or more powerful than you are. It was a strong feeling, and either I would chicken out, or something would happen to stop me. (the pipe would suddenly be empty inexplicably, someone would knock on my door, the mp3 player would run out of power, etc.)

So one time recently I was at my best friend's house. She lives in a less urban area with really great vibes, and I feel totally safe there. She has a guest room in the back that is quiet and private. So I did my little thing again, and all was the same, except that I kept going undisturbed.

I can't remember too many specifics, but I can tell you that it was like a classic hero's-quest kind of thing, where they must go through an ordeal of some kind involving terrifying scenes that will try to turn them back or make them give up. I know that I kept my eyes straight ahead no matter what I experienced even though there was a constant feeling of fearsome things behind and around me. The instinct to look over my shoulder at sensed danger was overwhelming but I felt somehow that I must not. My eyes were open, but the peaceful room I was in had become someplace else entirely, full of shadows and fear.

It went on a long time. And finally at a certain moment I realized that the next part of the music was a song called, "Venus," one that I find very beautiful and emotionally moving. It starts with a thunderclap, and as that happened the room slowly metamorphosed back into the room I had started in, with the little window looking out on a thick tangle of green plants, and sunlight coming in in long shafts with dust motes dancing. I cried, it was such a profound feeling. I had been so afraid, but I didn't break, and it was okay. I had done it.

I still can't say what exactly the purpose of this was, but I do believe it had a purpose. I don't know what, err, realm I was dealing with (hate that word, sounds hokey) either; yet I remain certain that on some level it was very real.

Also, one last thing; well, two. I have to take an MAOI every time, or the spice doesn't work, so I eat ground esphand, aka rue. The other thing is, I have had one or two trips into hyperspace that I remembered not at all. (I'm told I was having a blast, though.)

ChrisDoza
..with regards to body-twitching and spasm effects, such things were reported by T.McKenna of very high dose DMT (much larger than your friend's dose) sessions in the '60s (incl. gargoyle like contorted faces & strange noises) ..also, multi-alkaloid acacia extracts (often simply called "dmt' can exhibit similar effects in hugh doses due to the presence of such things as 5meoDMT or other tryptamines..

..i once sat in on such an acacia bio-assay, 15 years ago, around 50-60mg was vaporized in 3 tokes..(i should say that this was a like 1% or less of assays type phenomena) [there was probably a little 5meo in the extract, & certainly other tryptamines/betacarbolines]]

the 'subject' at around the 3-5minute point started screaming and moaning in odd ways..they abruptly stood up awkwardly, and began to lumber around the room like a confused ape with accompanying vocal noises..the observer in the room, with some native american direct experience, pulled out a feather, pointing & waving it at the 'crazed ape' and chanting softly in some native american tounge
..this seemed to calm the subject gradually..in the meantime i silently chanted some personal protection mantras while visualizing a protection circle around them, and mentally i prepared to crash-tackle and hold them (in the gentlest possible way ) should they lurch towards a window and injure themselves..
..this combined effort seemed to help, and the subject gradually slumped, and sat down slowly, bowing their head..after they had remained apparently subdued and silent for over 30 minutes, i spoke, asking if they were ok etc..they said they were slightly disorientated, otherwise fine and remembered being somewhere else surrounded by 9 "ancient shamans" and felt humble in their presence..he had no recollection of standing, lumbering or making strange sounds..

..at the time, the whole thing reminded me of somekind of odd metabolic reaction, confusing the physical systems..and, of course, of William Hurt's regression in "Altered States"..

..but i think the major complicating factor in your above described is the smoking of Syrian Rue beforehand..

i think there is wide variability in individual reactions to P. harmala based on metabolism/diet/other substance intake..once, in my 20s, in the midst of a most beautiful cubsensis experience i thought that smoking some rue might enhance it..i didn't think about some of the more chemically suspect junk food i had eaten at a shop earlier that day (or being satisfied with where i was at) ..it lead to 45 minutes of one of the most physically and mentally uncomfortable and disorientating trips i had ever had..i felt a heavy pressure in my kidneys & remember, of the mental effects having a moment here or there to think "oh right, so this is what 'round the bend' means..i knew the effects would last about 40 minutes, my only mental reassurance..2 average bongs were smoked.

..so, for the less familiar with DMT, i wouldn't recommend bringing Harmalas into the equation..and certainly not any other psychoactive drug, again, until familiar with the individual reaction to DMT..

hope some of this is helpful...

...

nen888
Thanks so much for that info, that seemed like the exact situation i was in with my buddy. Pretty much answered all my questions and i feel a lot reassured.