This article is not only shocking but repulsive.

These people are living in isolation, not hurting or bothering anyone but yet are being forced to tear down their homes and get off of the land.

Is living off the grid a crime?

Please share this article and videos far and wide. We have GOT to bring some awareness to this issue to help stand up and rally support for these people.

We are truly living in very sad times.

People should be able to live how they want. End of story.

Exactly. These people aren't hurting anyone so more power to them.

The government is only going to get worse until we band together and make a stand.

This article was the first thing I saw when I woke up and it's stirred up all types of emotions in me.

I have got to start being more active with my activism. I can't just sit by and watch this kind of stuff continue to happen without doing anything.

Uh, they might be. Wasn't 'Phonehenge' condemned because the creator constructed the building with absolutely zero regard for safety standards? This may well be the case with the properties of all these off-grid mavericks as well. It may seem petty and officious to be hassling these isolated people about unsound water tanks and whatnot, but from a policy standpoint doing so may prevent potentially fatal accidents and legal troubles in the future.

Building codes exist for a very good reason: to keep people alive. Would you venture into a building that you were unsure was safe? People are entitled to assurances that the roof above their head isn't going to collapse, particularly in such a disaster-prone (and litigious) place as California. The state is right to take a hard line with those who flagrantly disregard these standards and, as was the case with Phonehenge, cost taxpayers money when their mess needs to be cleared up.

I'd attribute this rationale to the government's actions sooner than to unsubstantiated theories about future real estate development.

Good on you brother. I have to admit I am not particularly active about things that cause me disgust. Here in the UK planning any structure is a real minefield, something I will likely never bother with as a result. Living off grid appeals greatly to me though, true freedom!

These are valid points but from what I can tell, they aren't even giving some of these people the option to rebuild.

What about the guy who restores cars? That was just a shed they had him remove and then all of the red tape they made him go through to keep the cars.

Telling the other guy that his doorways weren't big enough?

This is just the government pushing their weight around and picking on people who don't have much money and don't know what their rights are.

Most of those people have been there for 20+ years and haven't had or caused any issues with anyone. I still say more power to them. They are far enough out that if anyone got hurt, it would be the landowner.

It comes down to the fact that they do not make any money off of these people and that pisses them off. They are basically saying "Conform or GTFO" and that is not acceptable.

Maybe so, but I would certainly rather live in a society run by overzealous government than the alternative. Failures to build to code can cost lives. If some careerist suit looking to make a name for himself at city hall wants to prosecute that cause, then I'm more sympathetic to his motivations than to the desires of these people to be exempt from the responsibilities of adult life in a civil society.

You want "them" to leave you alone? Learn your rights and build to code. You win. Anything short of that and you deserve everything the bastards throw at you.

I guess that's where we should agree to disagree on your point about overzealous government. America is supposed to be the "Land of the Free" and this proves it's anything but. Me personally, I'd love to live in a place like phonehenge. I didn't get a good look at how secure the structure is, but it's thinking outside of the box and I have a lot of admiration for that.

Why live in a cracker box when you can live in a work of art?

This reminds me of the issues the guy in Taos, NM was having with building his Earthship houses. Those structures are far safer than just about any other type of building but he has had to go through miles of red tape to get them approved. Granted he won but it's been a long hard battle in order to make it a reality.

And another point not mentioned is that they said some of the people could move back in if they tapped back into the power grid. This point alone nullifies your point about the buildings being up to code.

This is about money. People living sustainably do not feed into their system and that pisses them off. Them bullying these people into living like everyone else pisses me off. We no longer have the Freedom of Choice. We are only left with the Freedom to Conform.

These people are not looking to be exempt from responsibilities. These people choose to live AWAY from our "civil society". They want to be left alone and live the way they want to. They bought the land, they own it, they pay their taxes, so let them live how they want to live.

If they were living in suburbia then it would be a COMPLETELY different scenario. If they want to live in a shack in the middle of nowhere, that is their prerogative and no one has the right to force them to do otherwise.

You realise this could just as well be the argument of a slum lord defending himself against felony charges of negligence of building maintenance? Is say, exposed wiring next to a gas line or a furnace that leaks carbon monoxide covered under the purview of "art"? If a building goes up in flames, you may not be the only person to die in the blaze. And no doubt these people all expect the fire dept to come and risk their lives in such an event.

I'm all for the noble underdog ra-ra of libertarianism in certain cases but here the rhetoric falls flat. No matter how far away you run from society, you are still a member of it while within its national borders; everyone within those borders has responsibilities to their fellow citizens in the present and the future, and things like cowboy construction, even out in the middle of nowhere, must be held to account for that fact.

(That said, the motivations on the other side are likely far from 100% noble - I agree that the injunction to reconnect to the power grid is probably little more than corporate venality, but that doesn't justify flagrant disregard for the safety, upkeep and resale concerns of the buildings you create)

I seriously doubt safety really has anything to do with it, like most legislation out there.
this is strong-armed politics at work, to eviscerate any attempts to undermine utility oligopolies.

The fact of the matter is most of these people have been there for 20+ years. These buildings are old, tattered and torn. They probably were up to code at some point but codes change.

I can appreciate where you are coming from with the slumlord analogy but that isn't the point for these people.

The government came in with loaded guns, tazers and no warrents. They came in and nitpicked each property to death. You can go to just about ANY home in America today and find coding violations.

These people are being singled out and robbed by civil terrorism as far as I'm concerned.

From your posts in other threads, I understand you are learning permaculture. Hypothetically speaking, let's say you bought some land out in the Antelope Valley. You build your garden, you build your house and you keep to yourself. You know your house is safe. It might not be up to "code" but you know in your heart that there are no real safety issues with it. But these guys come in anyway and say "If you don't connect your home to our power grid, you have to tear everything down."

Would you still agree with saying that these government agencies are in the right?

They listed 5 different agencies that are involved with this and not ONE would provide any sort of statement besides "the neighbors are complaining about eyesores" when the closest neighbor is 10+ miles away.

You have some valid points but I don't think they fully align with what's really going on here.

This is about money and this is about control. If someone's shed isn't up to code, it isn't really hurting anyone. They are saying some of them had too many cars. Others had to remove mobile homes. The one couple said the agencies pointed at the ground and said "You see that dirt, that's what we want your entire property to look like."

This is absurd abuse of power and I don't see how "codes" have anything to do with the majority of what is actually going on here.

These people are poor and are doing what they must to survive. The government is taking everything they've spent their lives building away from them with petty nuance laws.

I find it quite disturbing that you somehow think that what the government is doing to these people is fair, just and okay.

uhhh bulding codes seem to be there to protect us..but how many of you have worked in construction? I did it for 6 years..I rebuilt houses and even worked on one of the main bridges in the lower mainland BC..trust me, these "building codes" are just as bunk as anything else. Ive seen some pathetic shit pass due to nothing more than politics. I have seen structural parts sent from asia to the shop I worked in to be welded before they are sent off for bridge construction..stuff they want us to weld, while other parts of it already "finished" are freaking tacked with a soldering iron. I worked on that bridge for a year, and based on what I saw I really dont want to drive across the thing.

I understand that when a structure is not built to a certain standard it is dangerous to live in..but dont always expect anything better from something that has passed inspection or it up to "code". I have seen houses passed by inspectors after renovation that are literally rotting from the inside out. It is all about money and politics reguardless of where you are standing.

You want something done right, do it yourself.

Continued maintenance of residential property is a basic clause of ownership. And any building built to code is by definition the worst building allowable by law; these people's houses evidently do not even surmount that low hurdle. And building codes are by no means static, as any violations (which as you say can be easily found in every building) can readily be defended by applying for a variance, which will likely vindicate the owner's design provided it can be proven as not an outright safety risk (i.e. in the case of mere 'eyesore' violations, not so much fizzing electrical cables over the shower).


Your other points go toward criticising the proportion of the government's response, which I agree is totally outrageous. But sadly that's how the American government rolls, a fact that is entirely predictable and should be taken only as further motivation to stay as invisible to its eyes as possible. My unsympathetic position here is exactly the same as it is towards people caught dealing DMT - if you were lazy enough to hand the government all the pretext it needs to come after you, you deserve to get got.

If these people are so rampantly individualistic and just want to be left alone, play the government at their own game and respect the law. How much will doing so cost? Not nearly as much as bucking the system, which will cost them everything.

So basically you're saying "Let the government do what they do because they are predictable and it's not worth it to fight back." That's your opinion and I do not agree with it. It is up to the people to control their government, not the other way around. My opinion is that it is people like you who just roll over and "take it" so to speak who make this world the sad prison it is today.

I prefer to fight for what I believe in and if I lose everything in the process, I know I stood for what I know is right in my heart.

Thank you for your contribution to this thread but I think that this debate between you and I is over. We obviously don't see eye to eye and that's okay. Everyone is different and we are all entitled to our own opinion.

No. I believe in educated, productive advocacy, not senseless bucking of a system that is slavering at the prospect of your attempted resistance.

So, as per your kamikaze position on governmental reform, are you going to go hand out DMT outside your house tomorrow? I'm sure that'll stick it to the Man.

This debate isn't about DMT, this is about stealing people's homes. This is about violating civil liberties. This is about ethics. The government has no right to remove those people from their land. Period. And it had been established that this isn't just about code violations. This story runs a lot deeper than that and you are obviously unwilling to see the bigger picture here.

The issue, as I see it, is about defending oneself and one's interests against unjust incursion, whether that be of county building inspectors into your physical living space or DEA agents into your cognitive and spiritual sphere. The way to do this is to accord with the laws of the system and advocate for change through effective (read: legal) means, not by advertising your non-conformity and handing your oppressors all the reason they need to shut you and your cause down for good.

It is possible to play their game and win.

Ahh, thank you for articulating that for me. That I can agree with.

However... These people still need help and I'd like to assist them in any way that I can, even if it's just by spreading awareness to their cause. I have a lot of respect for people who live simply, sustainably and in harmony with nature. I feel that our current government and political systems are afraid of people like this instead of embracing this type of mentality.

I would still like a response to one of my previous questions if you wouldn't mind...




How would you deal with this situation if it happened to you?

I just wanted to add...

I feel that the deeper issue here is that the government wants the land, they know that these people cannot afford to run electricity out there and they (the government) are willing to use any excuse necessary to remove these people and steal the land.

It's not like these people are acting in a non-conformist way, they have been living there for 20+ years and it has never been a problem until.... Now...

These people have tried to comply with whatever the government wants. You saw the footage of the sheds and such being removed. It's not like they aren't trying. The powers that be want them out and will use whatever laws they can find to make it happen.

These people need help. We all do for that matter. If they can do it to them, they can do it to us.

That's really all I'm trying to get across.