DMT-Nexus member
 
Posts: 12340 Joined: 12-Nov-2008 Last visit: 02-Apr-2023 Location: pacific
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well..there is something there. I have experienced very light geometric visual and a tryptamine glow similar to mimosa or mushrooms..but it is not really worth it IMO until you seperate whatever it is from some of the other alkaloids..unless maybe you have a strain that is really high on the desired alkaloids and low on the undesired ones..I used wild arundianea every time. Long live the unwoke.
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Dreamoar
Posts: 4711 Joined: 10-Sep-2009 Last visit: 21-Nov-2024 Location: Rocky mountain high
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I would naturally assume wild grasses growing in different climates would have very different alkaloid profiles as well. This experiment is being done with wild picked arundinacea. So far so good on the extraction front, there is definitely some kind of alkaloids in there, but we won't know if there are any tryptamines till I manage to assay the final product; and even then that would just prove there are tryptamines in my local grass which may not be true of someone else's local grass. If however, I can manage to isolate some (fairly) pure NN from the grass without (much) contamination from other alks then we can start getting excited about a grass tek that everyone can use and the only worry will be whether the grass has the NN in it in the first place. As a side note: I am growing all the moar popular of the known strains (AQ1, Big Medicine, Yugo Red, and Turkey Red) but they are all just very small clones at the moment and it will be at least next year before I will even come close to having enough biomass to start experimenting with them.
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LUVR
Posts: 1331 Joined: 24-Aug-2010 Last visit: 17-Jan-2024 Location: Thither
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Whats the word on the extraction dreamoar? 'Little spider weaves a wispy web, stumblin' through the woods it catches to my head. She crawls behind my ear and whispers secrets. Dragonfly whiz by and sings now teach it.'
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Dreamoar
Posts: 4711 Joined: 10-Sep-2009 Last visit: 21-Nov-2024 Location: Rocky mountain high
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official results of dreamoars wild grass extraction: FAIL! A nice a/b with multiple defats using xylene and naptha on 1.5 grams of those pretty fumerate xtals yielded a small amount (probably <20mg) of yellow goo that smells like laundry detergent. Conclusions: Thar be no dimethytryptamine in the dreamoars wild grass. Best to work with the known strains. I'll write up the full report for everyone to see the exact process in the next day or two.
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LUVR
Posts: 1331 Joined: 24-Aug-2010 Last visit: 17-Jan-2024 Location: Thither
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Wah Wah. Oh well, nice try for sure! Those damn elves again, up to no good! 'Little spider weaves a wispy web, stumblin' through the woods it catches to my head. She crawls behind my ear and whispers secrets. Dragonfly whiz by and sings now teach it.'
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Posts: 981 Joined: 24-Dec-2009 Last visit: 13-Oct-2022
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Whats in the goo? Go team GCMS!
βRight here and now, one quanta away, there is raging a universe of active intelligence that is transhuman, hyperdimensional, and extremely alien... What is driving religious feeling today is a wish for contact with this other universe.β
β Terence McKenna
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 4733 Joined: 30-May-2008 Last visit: 13-Jan-2019 Location: inside moon caverns
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There should be something like the ansari X price, just for coming up with a reliable grass tek. I'm sure the person who delivers will earn the nobel price equivalent of chemist status among the psychedelic community... 
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 12340 Joined: 12-Nov-2008 Last visit: 02-Apr-2023 Location: pacific
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dreamer042 wrote:official results of dreamoars wild grass extraction: FAIL!
A nice a/b with multiple defats using xylene and naptha on 1.5 grams of those pretty fumerate xtals yielded a small amount (probably <20mg) of yellow goo that smells like laundry detergent.
Conclusions: Thar be no dimethytryptamine in the dreamoars wild grass.
Best to work with the known strains.
I'll write up the full report for everyone to see the exact process in the next day or two.
Did you save the goo? I have been blown away on one occasion with wild arundinacea grass..I ended up with a good that smelled nothing like DMT either..but there was definatily enough tryptamines in there..I think it was mainly 5meo though..but still. I will happily take 5meo any day over nothing from free grass. Did you test it at all? Also, remember alot of it was probabily oxides..so when you did a/b on those fumerates did you pull with xylene as well or only use xylene to defat? If you only pulled with naptha than you might have lots most of the DMT/5meo becasue it is all going to be in oxide form and naptha wont pull it. Long live the unwoke.
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Posts: 981 Joined: 24-Dec-2009 Last visit: 13-Oct-2022
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Maybe a zinc reduction on raw fumarate salts could be looked into.
βRight here and now, one quanta away, there is raging a universe of active intelligence that is transhuman, hyperdimensional, and extremely alien... What is driving religious feeling today is a wish for contact with this other universe.β
β Terence McKenna
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 2354 Joined: 24-Jan-2010 Last visit: 21-Jun-2012 Location: Massachusetts
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dreamer042 wrote:
Best to work with the known strains.
Do you have any suggestions on where to get known strains? PK Dick is to LSD as HP Lovecraft is to Mushrooms
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 1453 Joined: 05-Apr-2009 Last visit: 02-Feb-2014 Location: hypospace
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Phalaris alkaloids seem concentrated in new growth.
The old entheogen review articles when Dekorne was editor mention crystals obtained from phalaris extractions, so success has been known for over a decade regarding this genus.
So many different alkaloids can be found in this species, the online version of KT's aya book :http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/ayahuasca_apa/
Has data from various phalaris study.
Appleseed found that taking the grass, fresh, and simmering it for 10-20 minutes and then removing it and adding new grass and repeating allowed alkaloids to accumulate in solution to an amount that is useful in extraction and pharmahuasca use, while minimizing the extraction of chemicals that caused undesirable effects, he was unable to locate a strain of grass devoid of the undesirable alkaloid effects, but did find that a shorter boiling time reduced and minimized such effects.
Harvesting whole plants of this is a watse and gives bad results, only the new growth seems useful and alkaloids seem to either translocate from old growth to new growth or they seem to degrade in old grow, while still remaining in new growth. It is also worth noting that extractions of fresh material are typically more effective and dried material, when the plants dry it seems that a large amount of the alkaloids are broken down.
Interestingly fresh juice and quids of some phalaris selections like big medicine seem to be more effective than can be explained by the known chemical data. In this regard caution is advised, while not having much alkaloid that can be extracted some strains seem to be potent enough to cause problems related to being overwhelmed due to the intensity of effects.
Phalaris in general is not for beginners in terms of extraction or experiences.
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Dreamoar
Posts: 4711 Joined: 10-Sep-2009 Last visit: 21-Nov-2024 Location: Rocky mountain high
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I do still have the goo, but I'm not looking to try smoalking something that obviously is not the product I'm looking for. known strains are available online, I'll make a post in the suppliers section. I just pulled with naptha on my a/b, I'll try a pull with xylene and evap it up (ewwww I hoped to never have to do that again) just to be sure. I also have some extra fumerates, maybe I'll try a zinc reduction on them at some point... I'm still standing by the conclusion that wild grass is too variable and is not worth the time, and its best to just grow the known strains. Here's the rough unedited notes of my process: Quote:
786 grams of dried blended phalaris
Put in a 5 gallon #2 HDPE bucket
350 grams pickling lime added
3000 ml water added
Mix mix mix using a big stainless steel spoon
Once well mixed, 2500ml of xylene was added
This was mixed thoroughly for ~ 5 mins then allowed to sit for ~30 mins, mixed⦠repeat over the course of 2 hours
The solvent was poured off through a 100% cotton t-shirt into another bucket the excess solid material was put back in the first bucket with the rest of the grass.
Another 500ml xylene + ~1500ml limonine was added to the first buck with the grass (ran out of xylene) for a second pull
Mixed well for 5 mins allowed to sit for 30 mixed again for five⦠over the course of ~ 2hours
The pulls were combined and put in some jars.
Fumeric acid was added to water till no moar would dissolve. Sorry forgot to take exact measurements here. It should be somewhere around 15-30 g of fumeric acid in 800-1000ml water.
Fumeric acid saturated water was added to the solvent and the jars were rolled end over for 5 mins, allowed to settle for 30 mins rolled for 5 sit for 30 and so on for 2-3 hours.
The FASW was seperated from the solvent in a gravy separator and poured off into a clean jar
The fasw from the jar was poured into a pyrex bowl which was put in the oven to evap at 170 degrees
The dry dirty fumerate xtals were scraped up and weighed at 2.26 g
Second pull yielded 1.79 grams fumerates that appear to be quite heavily contaminated with excess fumeric acid
Fumerates were mixed together to even out excess contamination
1.5 g of fumerates were dissolved in ~150ml boiling water ph was read to be around 4
~100ml of xylene was added to the fumerate water and a defat was done twice
~100ml of naptha was added to the fumerate water and a defat was done twice
A jar of sodium carb saturated solution was prepared by adding sodium carbonate to water till no moar would dissolve (didnβt keep track of numbers but as pure wild guess Iβd say 200-300 grams or moar of sodium carb were added to about 500-600ml of water (way moar than was necessary)
~150ml Sodium carbonate water was added giving a ph of around 12
the jar was pulled 3x with ~100ml naptha each pull
The naptha was combined and evapped yeilding a small amount of goo that smells nothing like spice.
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Faustian Phytochem Investigator
Posts: 194 Joined: 31-Oct-2011 Last visit: 14-Sep-2023 Location: Oaxaca
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One little piece to the P. arundinecea puzzle is that the grass shows 3 chemical phenotypes.
1) a Gramine phenotype
2) a 5-Meo phenotype
3) a DMT phenotype
Randomly collecting grass and extracting it will yield all 3 of these alkaloids as well as the other alkaloids that show up as trace and otherwise (NMT, b-carbs, etc.). But I think the main thing is the separation of these 3. The percentages that you will get will (among other variables) depend on the ratios of these 3 phenotypes in the sampled population. If memory serves, Gramine is usually the highest, 5-MEO next, and DMT last in natural populations. I also want to say that Hordenine was related to or found in the Gramine phenotypes, but would have to verify that.
This grass grows everywhere in the continental US and propagates by seed and rhizomes and thrives about anywhere. Given the ability to distinguish the 3 phenotypes, it would be very easy to propagate the DMT phenotype in a patch by not allowing the plant/plants to go to seed while it spreads through its rhizomes.
It wouldn't be necessary to do TLC if access to a visualization reagent such as Xanthydrol was used on spot tests. Xanthydrol is a colorimetric agent that shows Gramine as pink, 5-MEO as Blue, and DMT as Purple. Given the inability to use this reagent, TLC would then become the next easiest way to differentiate the phenotypes.
-D.
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Hyperspace Architect/Doctor
Posts: 1242 Joined: 11-Jul-2010 Last visit: 08-Dec-2012 Location: On this plane
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i am very interested but from what i remember i thought there was already a huge thread about phalaris, and i thought one of our problems was gramine or something like that, idk any updates have we gotten past this? "You are an explorer, and you represent our species, and the greatest good you can do is to bring back a new idea, because our world is endangered by the absence of good ideas. Our world is in crisis because of the absence of consciousness."
β Terence McKenna
"They Say It helps when you close yours eyes cowboy"
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 1453 Joined: 05-Apr-2009 Last visit: 02-Feb-2014 Location: hypospace
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Dozuki wrote:One little piece to the P. arundinecea puzzle is that the grass shows 3 chemical phenotypes.
1) a Gramine phenotype
2) a 5-Meo phenotype
3) a DMT phenotype
there are also forms with betacarbolines and hordenine
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Faustian Phytochem Investigator
Posts: 194 Joined: 31-Oct-2011 Last visit: 14-Sep-2023 Location: Oaxaca
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These compounds are found with the main alkaloids. The important thing here is that a single plant will contain either G, M, or T as the main alkaloid. You will not find a plant that contains 2 or 3 of these main alkaloids. The beta-carbolines are found with the T (DMT) and M (5-Meo) genotype. Hordenine (a Phenol) was found in the all three genotypes (Edit, see: Gander et al. 1976)
-D.
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member for the trees
 
Posts: 4003 Joined: 28-Jun-2011 Last visit: 27-May-2024
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Doctor Mantus wrote: Quote:i thought one of our problems was gramine or something like that, idk any updates have we gotten past this? i posted this in a desmanthus thread: Quote:gramine (also found in Phalaris spp) is speculated as having ephdedrine-like effects.. in sheep it was 'psychotropic' at 10-30mg/kg i.v.; it showed oral toxicity at very large doses (400-600mg/kg) leading to death in some animals [Bourke et al 1988]..
..in the amounts present (if at all) in Desmanthus or Phalaris (less than 5% of total alkaloids) it should present no serious toxicity, and be barely (if at all) noticeable.. so, yeah, we gotten past it.. ..even the mainly gramine type mentioned in the above post would probably not be a problem (toxicity wise) . ps. thanks for the phalaris research Dozuki...
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Faustian Phytochem Investigator
Posts: 194 Joined: 31-Oct-2011 Last visit: 14-Sep-2023 Location: Oaxaca
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nen- can you point me to a copy of that paper?
-D.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 1926 Joined: 10-May-2009 Last visit: 27-Apr-2015 Location: β
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On the subject of gramine, I would like to hear more what you know about it, nen. Ephedrine-like effects, do you refer to the old study showing it to be a norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor (Slotkin et al. 1978 )? I wouldn't believe that study, according to the paper about every one of the tested compounds is a norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor, it was a badly done in vitro study if memory serves correct. Not to mention that norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors != ephedrine-like effects, but you may be thinking about something else, please do enlighten me in that case.  All I know is that gramine is a 5HT-antagonist, the reverse effect of DMT and similar. Which means it would make a big difference if it is found in an extract or not. Also please refrain from saying that gramine is non-toxic, even in small doses, because we do not know that to be the case. It is regarded as toxic based on animal studies, and may very well be toxic in humans too.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 14191 Joined: 19-Feb-2008 Last visit: 15-Nov-2024 Location: Jungle
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I am about to get a couple of grams of gramine ref standard. What tests would you guys like me to do? and yeah I think gingko's point about gramine's toxicity is very valid! we just dont know it yet regarding humans, so before we know anything lets not assume its not-toxic. btw, the paper Nen quotes is this , I dont have access to it, if anybody does.. It talks about toxicity in sheep, but we just dont know if this actually is valid for humans.
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