HI! I was wondering if anyone knows the science behind any of these compounds and their use with psychedelics? I didn't want to make a new thread for each substance.

GABA: Will this substance potentiate, or inhibit dmt?

Melatonin: Does this potentiate tryptamines? What is its interaction with dmt and harmalas? I have been wondering this for a while.

5-htp: Any effect on tryptamines? Note: Use great caution if combining 5-htp with maoi's or rima (harmalas). 5htp increases serotonin levels, while maoi's reduce the breakdown of serotonin. The result of combining them, along with tryptamines, which also increase serotonin activity, may result in a potentially deadly reaction called "serotonin syndrome". I was just wondering if 5htp itself might have any potentiating psychedelic effect, or if it will just raise serotonin levels and not effect the journey.

While I'm here, I might as well ask for a list of potential substances that either potentiate, or inhibit the trytamines, and why. THANKS!

Apoc, lots of people use melatonin in conjunction with tryptamines/harmalas. A friend refers to it as "tuning your warp coil."

Last summer, I took a melatonin supplement to SLEEP and tripped unintentionally for three straight days. It was insane and brutal and I think I made several whacked-out panic threads about it.

There was also unique biochemistry leading up to this event: I had been fruitarian for about four months (fruit is full of MAOI, flavonoids, very neuroactive), microdosing Caapi every day also for many months, and drinking huge doses of Ayahuasca weekly. The ride was so rough I basically quit DMT for a year.

I am not going full-throttle now, but I do get subtle effects from small amounts of melatonin. I find that the closer together the time of consumption (harmalas and melatonin), the more likely there will be an intense potentiation.

To keep my life together, to reap the health benefits and not trip for days unintentionally (unfortunately, I have to pay the bills, one day when I don't, I will resume my warrior status ), I take harmalas in the morning and melatonin at night.

While I was in extreme-psychedelic-potentiation-diet mode, I did reproduce the effects of the crazy trip with lower doses and other forms of melatonin, consistently.

There is a weird, sinking-into-quicksand, lucid sedation that seems to come with it. It is deeply meditative. It seems to be the opposite of DMT in some ways, though; if DMT zooms my consciousness into the minutiae of an atom, melatonin takes me to the vast sea of space between the atoms. It feels extremely yin.

Montmorency cherries FTW. I never took a pill from the store. I eat cherries.

Barley grass gave me the problems. Initially, I was terrified because I thought I might be experiencing serotonin syndrome. I was hot, cold, tremoring uncontrollably, and dehydrated from running to the toilet. It was horrendous. I am sworn off the grass. The cherries, also rich in melatonin, do not have any of those terrible side effects.

hmmm, that is some weird experiences you've had with melatonin. I started using it all the way back in 1999. I never had any weird effects from it other than drowsiness. I don't even know anymore if it helps me sleep. I take it before going to bed, but I've been taking it for so long that it's harder to get to sleep without it (I think), so I just take it every night. I've been reluctant to try it with harmalas because I've read a few horror stories, I guess yours counts too, of really weird things happening even with small amounts of the combo. How much melatonin did you take to have your freakout? I wonder if the melatonin you were getting from natural sources is more bio available or something, or you had a lot in the system.

Can you describe what it was like tripping for days? That really happened? Was it like breakthrough ayahuasca level where you're imagining orbs and spirits around you, and feeling like you're travelling through a vortex? How did you function? Were your pupils dialated the whole time? Tremoring? Did you have to call in sick for work or anything? Just wondering.

When I took the barley grass for the first time, it was like the 3-day period, but slightly less intense and only lasted eight hours. I only took a fraction of the capsule, not wanting to feel drowsy the next day.

Here is the weird part: the grass capsules were 0.3 MICROGRAMS/piece. Apparently, smaller doses are sometimes more active, at least according to the websites that peddle this stuff. This is an extremely small amount compared to regular supplements, but blood levels are measured in picograms, so it's not impossible to rule out. There is NO placebo effect that could make me shit so many times on command, let alone to the point of dehydration, I am not making this up, I am saying it warrants further research! Something has to change the bioavailability.

Baffled but intrigued... oh LORD! I think I took a whole capsule the second night I tried. That was when things went out of control.

I did not go to work. The peak lasted through the first day, and I did three things: thrashed around in bed while hallucinating violently, ran to the bathroom while my body ejected everything violently, and in the moments of calm (shaking) spent time on the phone with an awesomely supportive sitter.

It was deeper and dreamier than Ayahuasca... I remember being able to see into my body (neon veins, organss, etc.). When I did sleep, I had insane dreams that dealt with a lot of very early childhood issues, it got very lucid at points. The last two days calmed down a bit, there were moments I felt sober and other moments where it just started soaring up again out of nowhere, color sharpness, panic and tremors. Having the sense to check pupils was not present. (It sucked to be caught OFF GUARD because I am all for RESPONSIBLE and PREPARED tripping! :evil: )

Later on, I got into Montmorency cherries. There are apparently some speedy compounds in barley grass (hordenine for one, not sure what else could have synergized). The cherries produced all of the psychedelic effects--IDENTICAL to what I experienced with the grass, again, unique from Ayahuasca/mushrooms--with NONE of the nasty OMG-am-I-going-to-die side effects I got from the grass. There was a bit of purging in the beginning, but nothing beyond what any other kind of cherries would do normally.

20 Montmorency cherries are 0.15 micrograms of melatonin. I found that my requirements varied depending on time of month, what I had eaten in the day, lots of factors. I've had effects from as little as 5 cherries, and other disgruntled nights where I've eaten as many as 60 to sleep, but with no avail. 20 was a good number while I was microdosing/in crazy diet mode.

Currently, I'm taking ~12 cherries before sleep without any Caapi, I sleep well, have insane dreams, and see a bit of patterns and feel light and floaty while I fall asleep. That's really all I want from melatonin in my life at this point, as far as hallucinations are concerned.

Interestingly enough, I have a friend who takes upward of 10mg with Ayahuasca to remain in a more calm, meditative state. That is a comparitively massive dose. He said he was envious and puzzled by my results (as I flopped around, teeth chattering and clenching my gut, "ENVIOUS?! :evil: " ). Other people have said melatonin "smooths out" the comedown with Ayahuasca/mushrooms.

From my experience, dose, diet, and the time/sequence of ingesting melatonin and harmalas all seem to impact how intense an experience will be. Will nothing happen? Will you sleep peacefully? Or will you fly off the handle?

Writing this off to "placebo," "power of suggestion," etc., is simply ignoring a phenomenon that repeatably and reliably can be made to happen in my body, just like smoking DMT can repeatably and reliably produce equally altered states of consciousness in my brain. So. It's pretty weird and I wish I could find some more information!!

Glad to see a revived interest in the subject, personally! I think there's lots to learn...

GABAergics and trypamines are worth the experimentation. There was a post in Changa subforum about phenibut and spice, although it is inconclusive to me. I know phenibut(GABA agonist) + Piracetam(GABA derivative) combination can get pretty intense on its own, and beautifully synergize/potentiate alcohol, weed, or syrian rue(although a true MAOI and phenibut are counterindicated). It could potentiate the heck outta tryptamines, thread carefully. I got a shipment of supplements/nootropics coming in soon, although not sure if I'll be up for smoking spice while under those effects. Perhaps a micro dose.

Yes, that is indeed weird Minxx. From the way you described it, I wondered if you got poisoned with something other than melatonin. I still have a hard time believing that such small amounts of melatonin alone could whoop yo ass so hard. I first thought your crazy experience was at least the result of taking melatonin with ayahuasca, but you say it was just melatonin and a build up of other things from diet, but ayahuasca not taken at the same time as the melatonin. Crazy. I'll be looking in to these natural sources, and probably try the grass you dread.



lol. What? Are you saying that if you didn't have to go to work, you would kick your own ass with melatonin to make yourself trip for days? I think I'm going to go in to warrior mode this week. I have a few days off.

I'm still curious about gaba and a scientific reason why it might be a potentiating substance. According to wikipedia, "GABA is the chief inhibitory neurotransmitter in the mammalian central nervous system. It plays a role in regulating neuronal excitability throughout the nervous system." In humans, GABA is also directly responsible for the regulation of muscle tone." So when reading that, it sounds like gaba inhibits everything. There's also this quote from bluelight, "Some (substances) may (???) also prevent psychedelic activity, in the same way that GABA-A agonists can end a psychedelic experience".

according to the chart on this page, http://www.aafp.org/afp/20000501/2763.html Benzodiazepines is a class of sedative-hypnotic drug that is a gaba agonist. And aren't Benzodiazepines the substances used to put a stop to psychedelic activity?

In my searches, I also came across some dumb page claiming, "Schedule I drugs, such as heroin, marijuana, and most psychedelics, have a high risk of dependency and no widely accepted medical use. These drugs are forbidden and cannot be obtained even by prescription". Anyone here have any problems with that claim? Anyone mind that psychedelics get lumped in with heroin? Just thought that was absurd. Oh, here's the kicker, "Finally, alcohol and tobacco are not classified under this law. They fall under the jurisdiction of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF), which is a division of the U.S. Department of the Treasury."

Apoc, was that a webpage signed by our friends in the UN?

I envision myself... maybe in my 60s, living in some edenic beach house with a giant garden, "Oh! No! Too much grass!" and falling out of a hammock into a bed of daisies on a sunny day.

The barley supplements, by the way, were called Asphalia. To be clear, I was drinking Ayahuasca weekly, but microdosing morning AND night (which can build up to an intensity on its own). I was taking the melatonin at night.

/end Minxx's melatonin mysteries

GABA has intrigued me also...

I take a mixture of melatonin and a teaspoon of caapi with a tiny bit of mimosa in it every night when i go to sleep. It is great.

Interesting. Ayahuasca will keep me up, but I've never tried microdosing before sleep. There have been a few times when I've drifted off to sleep on an aya journey, but I am quickly jolted awake that feels like some energy build up, usually accompanied by some impossibly vivid imagery. I'm guessing you don't get insane effects from taking melatonin with harmalas. What doses do you recommend? Do you know if there is a general dose at which harmalas + melatonin would become uncomfortable?

oh I do get those jolts often and wake up tripping even with like 5-10g caapi that has maybe .25g mimosa in it and picogram ammounts of melatonin(I get melatonin from tart cherries)...part of that might be my diet though..all the fruit seems to lower my sensitivity..

I microdose anywhere from like 1-10g of caapi every day..or some days I use rue..some nights it can keep me up in a sort of sleepy trance if I take enough..like last night I tried to "microdose"..except I took about 2 grams of rue and a gram of mimosa with .5g chaliponga. Dont ask me why I took it and expected to sleep within 30-40 minutes..

I have been taking harmalas daily for nearly 6 months now I think, and I have become very sensitive to the effects..I can tell if I have had just 5g of caapi..I can lay down and go right into a light medative trance..usually I fall asleap that way with a fist sized quartz skull in my hand.

GABA-agonistic drugs vary hugely in effects. Some of them will surpress the effects of psychedelic drugs, while others have psychedelic effects themselves, like fly-agaric, or are capable of enhancing the effects of psychedelic's, like green tea.

There are probably different ways in wich a substance can affect GABA receptors with each a different outcome.

I've been taking melatonin with rue harmalas or caapi on average 5 nights a week for months now. I actually feel better than ever lately and my sensitivity has gone up. I need extremely small amounts of sleep as well, although that doesn't stop me from the occasional 12 hours . i'll often wake up at the crack of dawn wide awake after only a few hours of sleep, sometimes thinking WHY OH WHY. but sometimes i'll get up from there and enjoy a full day. if not, i can fall asleep again easily. Life in general, and sleep/waking/inbetween -states especially, have gotten soo blissful

One thing that interests me regarding these things: If i fall asleep before or shortly after the affects of this mix come on,i almost always wake up the next day with those jittering harmala tracers present in the morning light.. Even if its 8-12 hours after dosing what would be a to me fairly light dose. I'm not sure what this is about. it seems to wear off in about half an hour after waking, and i'm pretty sure it only happens if i fall asleep before the comedown..anyone else noticed this? i'm not sure if the melatonin has anything to do with this or if its related to some change in metabolism that occurs while sleeping, or both, or what.

yes I do notice something similar Universe when I fall asleap after taking my harmalas. I believe that the harmalas stimulate pinoline production..and the melatonin does as well, as well as the melatonin making more of itself available for pinoline conversion...and then whatever other weird neuro-transmitters come in the wake of pinoline..

I've suggested this several times: take l-tryptophan rather than melatonin.

feedback inhibition, from taking melatonin, interferes with serotonin production. It would behoove you to take a precursor rather than an 'end product' (melatonin is closer to end products). l-tryptophan covers the serotonin pathway, as well as NMT/DMT production, which occurs in a separate pathway, which 5-HTP does not cover.

Wow, i just googled feedback inhibition serotonin melationin and came across this.

http://psi-researchcentre.co.uk/article_1.html

A treasure trove of info in regard to endogenous tryptamines/beta carbolines/etc. Lots and lots of references too.

Thanks! I will look in to that. Thanks for the science lesson. Do you take l-tryptophan with ayahuasca? Care to share the effects?