Scientist are very stuck in reason and logic. DMT is far beyond reason and logic in my opinion. Reason and logic limits the mind extremely much. For me to really get deep into hyperspace I have to leave reason behind. Reason belongs to the physical plane, and western science is built on the rules of this plane.

Oh crap, this is getting out of control....

But it seems to me that some people are easier to convince than others. With the scientists being some of the most difficult folk to convince. But that is because they are critical, really critical. This is pretty much essential for getting an better understanding of this world. Otherwise, you can believe anything you want, but that gives an incomplete image of the world.

The easier-to-convince folk not only take poor evidence for granted, they are also rely on other people's interpretations a bit too much. Cheeto referred to some UFO phenomena as examples. This is quite telling example of how people from the different viewpoints think;

For some, it will be as simple as that, Yeah, UFOs, so there are aliens, so the whole dmt and aliens thing is not too far fetched.

For others, UFOs are simply UFOs; Unidentified flying objects. They do not leap to the aliens explanation. Why would they? Could other explanation be given? In many cases loads of UFO phenomena have been dismissed as artefactual or illusional. An how about reported alien abduction? why should they be taken for granted? what is the solid evidence that the event happened? None really found so far. It is even perfectly normal for individuals to be delusioned by their minds to believe in otherworldly events. Something similar happens with schizophrenics.

It all reminds me these "funny experiments" with past life regression. So, allegedly, some people could be hypnotized and they could bring memories from the past. Memories of people that are no longer alive. This was groundbraking. The implications were massive for everybody. because it meant that our soul (whatever that is) could travel from body to body, and it could also under certain situations (hypnosis) remember aspects of this past life.

Intense investigations began because that was pretty much hot topic. It took a couple of clever scientists to solve the mystery. They got those hypnotized persons, they had them reveal their "past lives", then ask the killer question "where did you acquire all this information from?" The hypnotized people were very willing to reveal the sources of inspiration; in all of the cases it was some tractable source, like some character of a book, some tv or movie character or even a real historical persons life they happen to read in a museum or historical reconstruction site. And since this revelation, people slowly started losing faith to that...But what emerged was the mind's powerful ability to store information and bring it forward under certain situations (e.g. hypnotism) in the most vivid way.

So, non-critical folk can take anything as proof. They can easily believe that past life regression through hypnotism is an evidence for past lifes. Good for you, I don not buy it.

I prefer the more critical approach, which reveals far more interesting facts. Such as extraordinary abilities of the human mind. But human all too human I guess. Nothing alien i'm afraid.

just because it hasnt been proven yet..doesnt mean it wont be..remember to keep an open mind..but be skeptical of everything...even your own thoughts..even the ones saying that it hasnt been proven so it must not be so..

if the imagination can create anything...which it can...look at quantum physics for instance...then if the mind can create anything..and the mind creates aliens..then they must be real..or at least you should keep PART of your mind open to the idea...doesnt mean its actually true..but it very well could be..

what i have found with all of this new information is that nothing is absolutely true..and nothing is absolutely false...to discount something just because it hasnt been proven yet is very limiting..keep your options open..and FLUID...otherwise you are just another stubborn unchangeable person..and nobody likes stagnation..

use your imagination..you may be surprised what turns out to be true

The Flying Spaghetti Monster was obviously witnessed to consume ayahuasca plants, and since its customary for pirates to drink of His excrement, the power of the plants was discovered. The recipe was later sold to Jesus who was known to brew it up for parties after a hard day of battling dinosaurs in the Amazon.

Aliens are just as condiluted an archetype as any other crackpot mythos. People would rather cling to higher beings than explore what's actually available to them. Certainly these archetypes bear meaning on a psychological level, but don't get so caught up in appearances and novelty speculation.

You are missing my main point. That people discover medicinal plants all the time. They discovered plant combinations that are more complicated then ayahuasca. So again would you apply this alien theory to all medicinal plants?

Listen folks I am not trying to be close minded but I do want to point out that there are other ways of looking at this stuff.



I agree and I am not shooting down all possibilities. I am just trying to offer another possibility that others don't seem to want to consider...that human beings discovered ayahuasca without alien help.



I think thats a potential misinterpretation of quantum mechanics for reasons I have discussed in mystical experience thread I started a while back.



I don't really see whats unresonably or illogical about DMT or its experience. Person takes drug that effects perception persons perception changes. Its really that simple. Or person does enter another dimension or become conscious of another dimension. This is also possible. I would just be careful about jumping to conclusions that you are going to other dimensions etc because you run the risk of severely misinterpreting the world around you.



I am sure police occasionally rely on psychics but not for their "psychic abilities" but for their keen skills of observation. In other words I am skeptical about that too (



Put it this way. If what you are seeing on DMT is "real" then so are potentially a lot of other things that are others would look at as hallucinations. They also get the chance to be "real". Some of those things you and others might not want to be "real" because of the fear and crazyness they instill in those who see/hear them. But this ties back into a discussion about whats real and whats not aaahahahha can it end ahhaha its great.



I could be under more genetic control then I realize or more influenced by things I don't realize but I still think most human beings are somewhat in control of their actions. I don't see what makes you sick about what I am saying.




I thought I saw a UFO once. It turns out SWIM was tripping balls near a military base and got confused. Also its not that science doesn't put a stamp of approval on it. Part of being a good scientist is understanding when other scientists including yourself is wrong. I think people see lots of weird things in the sky and call it a UFO. If it was an alien spacecraft someone would have detected it and talked about it and it would be taken seriously if there was a serious piece of evidence.




Well its possible but it gets more and more unlikely as you look at the evidence that we already have for how life got here. I don't know that aliens did not create the earth. I really don't. But the way that we observe planets forming and cosmological evolution doesn't really point to such an event. Our solar system was formed by other stars that exploded long time ago. Maybe an alien caused that? I doubt it because stars explode all the time its ineviatable that they explode. Thats all I am really saying is that before turning to strange other explanations consider the ones we have and if those don't fit find more evidence for other explanations. Thats how you arrive at reasonable conclusions about things. Before people knew about cosmology and evolution they just said "god made it that way" but now we have mechanisms to explain how things got to be the way they are without that kind of being controlling everything. Are there still gaps? Yes and maybe they will be filled by aliens or gods but until that point its just a belief.



I am not saying its all insane but you must admit it does sound crazy no? Anyway I do believe in aliens and there have been times in my life when I was very much convinced I may have been communicating with them. I also think its very likely that life exists elsewhere in the universe. I just don't think that kind of alien has come here yet because I haven't seen enough evidence to believe that. Other dimensional aliens perhaps. But about other dimensional aliens the reason SWIM am so skeptical is that SWIM has seen other things like communicating with the dead and that has made SWIM really start to question what is actually happening when we go to these places.

I've looked into lots of flying saucer stuff when I was younger and it just wasn't convincing even my own experiences of weird things being seen in the skies. Listen I am 100% in favor of drugs being legal but if everyone who smokes DMT runs around saying "its the aliens!" some insane government or religious leader might start getting on our case. I do believe we should have an equal say in things and thats why I like having this discussion with you and again sorry if I sound like a dick because I really don't mean too.

Anyway I think this is fun to discuss so don't take what I say too seriously everyone is entitled to their beliefs but if I see holes in someones beliefs I try to point them out to either get an explanation or help someone see something a bit differently.

I could never say aliens are true, but why i buy into is a different reason. I love logic, its the only way to be, but how i can believe this is the more likely case without solid evidence(which to science would be nothing short of having a UFO), is because to me it can seem logical that there is a cover up. Meaning they would never approve, because they don't want you to believe. Its seems that way because of how wide spread the so called un-solid evidence is. How about the times whole cities say them, and reported? What about all the people claiming these things, and not just your people, respected people, law enforcement, military. To me, for someone to think everyone lied and not one bit is genuine, is in fact unlogical. And why i jump to aliens is my own logic, say its really military testing secret equipment, why would they fly over cities for everyone to see there secret(not so secret anymore) ships? Being it is military, since our government is so advanced in anti gravity and traveling at the speed of light, why are we so far behind them? I know we are behind them, but not far behind, i doubt there exploring the universe in secret ships and not telling anyone. That would seem to far fetched, still possible, but not likely. With so many cases, taged along with NASA always watching our planet, i think it is very logical that there is a cover up. For it to be real, NASA would have seen it, there funded by the government, to me its a cover up. That is my logical view on this subject and how i can base theorys off of aliens, my theorys are never ment to be how it IS, rather a good possibility of how it could be in terms of my logic.

Burnt : Well its possible but it gets more and more unlikely as you look at the evidence that we already have for how life got here. I don't know that aliens did not create the earth. I really don't. But the way that we observe planets forming and cosmological evolution doesn't really point to such an event. Our solar system was formed by other stars that exploded long time ago. Maybe an alien caused that? I doubt it because stars explode all the time its ineviatable that they explode. Thats all I am really saying is that before turning to strange other explanations consider the ones we have and if those don't fit find more evidence for other explanations. Thats how you arrive at reasonable conclusions about things. Before people knew about cosmology and evolution they just said "god made it that way" but now we have mechanisms to explain how things got to be the way they are without that kind of being controlling everything. Are there still gaps? Yes and maybe they will be filled by aliens or gods but until that point its just a belief.


Ok, i'll stop being on the defensive side. You didn't mention this, so let me give you another view on this alien thing, not DMT aliens. Ok, you talked about stars exploding and creating planets, i'm aware of this process, i wasn't suggesting they created the planet, yet picked a good planet to start life on. Even we are looking at this possibility, looking for a planet to move to. To adjust the enviroment to fit our needs. Surely someone who has mastered Universal travel could tweak a planet and give life to it. Even let it evolve on its own, only sometimes tampering with it to get more the results they want in what ever reason they have for cunducting the experiment all together. Don't you think thats a better approach than them actually trying to construct the planet out of space dust, or exploding stars, i have never considered that possibility.


I know science has to take its time, can't assume, only prove. But sometimes its took to an extreme level of criticism. Take EVPs for example, scientist are aware of this yet still write it off because they can't explain it. Assume its not real because they can't explain it. How can an instrument we made catching a voice from thin air not be hard evidence? Its seems that sometimes the science community want admit things as very possible because there afaid of being wrong, and afaid of what others in the science community will say about them for suggesting something without a ghost in handcuffs that they can talk too.

lol, we brought a nice discussion to an agent Mulder vs agent Scully situation.

I am absolutely certain that people who report UFO phenomena are not lying. I believe that in the majority of cases they are very honest about their reports. But again, this is not a proof between UFOs and visitors from outer space.

One could suppose that yeah, aliens have come to earth. They have even collaborated with a minority of humans to enslave and control the majority. So, aliens are here, they do their experiments with UFOs and stuff and that is what sometimes see if an "experiment" gets slightly out of control.

But this goes a bit into conspiracy theories. I detest conspiracy theories because most of them tend to make unrational claims. My problem is always has to do with this secrecy thing. Why keep it secret? If aliens are on earth what do they want? What business are they running? Even if what is the purpose of keeping it secret? Why would the government try to cover them up? what type of (alien?) technology(ies) is the government trying test? But most importantly, how do some people learn about these "secret" documents that at times "secretly leak" out of closed doors and "forgotten" archives.

My counterargument to conspiracy theories is that there is a much greater true conspiracy that makes false claims to create an non-existent "conspiracy theory" that will keep some heads turned away from honestly real problems of this world. And the world had more real problems than visitor aliens or things like that.

In other words, if one is accepting conspiracy theories of any sort, then who really made the conspiracy theory in the first place? Where do you end when you start looking at conspiracy theories. Nowhere apparently.

I'll keep it short...i already gave you a reason. "make unrational claims", wasn't it once considerd that the earth being round was a unrational claim?

One more thing. Why i tend to jump away from what science says.

(Not real, just imagine with me)

Say that every human is some special being capable of God-Like abilites. Being able to shape the world around you by simple thought. Now say with that being real, everything else is how we see it now. Say for you to actually see these results you would have to believe in the same way that if you kick a can you know it will move. But, you depend on science for your answers of what life is, and science will tell you thats not the case. So really, your going to end up wasting your life bound to these rules, never seeing your own potential because science would never be able to prove such a claim. Just an example of how science CAN detour you. Science can also help you, i love science, not hating on it.

So? This is not an argument. Indeed once was thought that earth was not spherical. As long as some indications started appearing that it may not be flat after all (for instance the gradual disappearance of a ship's mast on the horizon), the subject was further investigated by some. Soon after more indications were gathered and Eratosthenes managed to prove the sphericity and measured earths' circumference and radius circa 200BC.

Medieval times were a bitch and issues were suppressed by theocracy, but then again the sphericity of earth revived.

How does it fit with the aliens? We have some indications. True. But indications are not evidence. Indications just point to a direction, nothing more. Even more indications may initiate investigations to collect some evidence. Then the evidence can be used to support a fact.

Insofar, we have indications. But no evidence. As a scientist I somehow dislike indications. I have had millions of times indications of how things could be working on my system of study and investigation. But upon gathering solid evidence, it appeared that much different things were true than those expected from the indications alone.

Same goes for the past life regression example above. The indications pointed to the existence of past lives. The evidence however pointed to few more amazing abilities of the human mind.

Or the structure of DNA. In lack of x-ray data (there the structure of DNA can be "visualised" ) many different indications discovered by many independent researches pointed to so much different and diverse putative structures. When the x-ray data came out, this was a solid evidence for the structure.

What I am trying to demonstrate here is that indications are not enough. And some science folk are critical about those indications because they can be sometimes tricky as fuck. That is why we reserve ourselves in admitting something in lack of sufficient proof.

Look up the Disclosure Project..there are HUNDREDS of high ranking US Government Officials saying they have had direct and indirect experiences with aliens/ufos

I understand that, but you missed my point. Read my last reply again. I'm just giving an example of how science can hold people back. Just because a scentist thinks its unrational has nothing to do with weather its real or not. Scientists are bond to facts, but what if the more real things can't be explained by science, then its just considered unrational thought, and never really considered a possibility. We may get to a point when we understand that science can't explain everything, maybe to complex, and to depend souly on its requirements can hold advancment back.

You seem smart, this is really off subject. This is a thought of mine, i tend to wonder why humanity as a whole are dumb as dirt. Being we only have so much fresh water, so many jobs, so many resources, and so much space, how is it that people don't see we are over populating and will be the cause of our end if nothing is done about it. This concerns me because i've never even heard anyone other than me make this statement.

dont you worry cheeto...its on my mind as well..but the way i see it..is everything is in divine perfect order...welcome to the grand finale

Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Polpot, and few others had foreseen the problem of overpopulation and were brave enough to jump to the solution. Too bad the rest didn't see it that way

There are plenty of resources on earth both for humans and any other life form. Fresh water's won't be much of a problem as long as more efficient desalinisation techniques are developed. And there are plenty of good ideas out there. As far as space is concerned, well earth is not that overpopulated from humans; Trying to make Sahara desert arable and frendier to live is certainly a more "grounded" goal than moving to other planets.

But hey, you need some good piece of science to do all that stuff. (science the way it is applied today is utterly dangerous and catastrophical, I do not argue that). But science walks really slowly and cautiously. But certainly faster than aliens. Should we decide to wait for alien help, well, we're royally fucked.

Ha, i known i will get some smack for this. lol

I would like to do or see an experiment done, i personally don't see it not worth looking at, everything is worth lookin at once. I think it could clear alot up about paranormal abilities, test to see if they are real or more than likely not. Find quit a bit of people to work with who are real susceptible to hypnosis and possible already claiming to have some kind of paranormal ability(And some that don't). Most people would agree if one person can do it, anyother person can do it with right amount pratice that yeilds correct results, with few exceptions. So you attempt to train these people through hypnosis to build up paranormal abilities, start small and building up. For the ones that already claim to have abilities your just trying to quickly advance them to something that can't be denied. Also work with TK, don't just stick to head games, lets attemp to see if it can effect the physical world. If hypnosis can work like they say it can at times, then this could very well be worth looking at. Just think of the possibility of it not comeing up to be the result you would think, what if it shocked you and opened a hole nother door for science.

I think we may slowly be veering off topic but anyway its fun.

I agree also that science can sometimes impinge people. But like I said good science is done in such a way that when your wrong and someone else proves your wrong bam ok we shake hands and move on. Science can also be destructive if manipulated for personal gain or political aims but thats getting into a side discussion about science so I'll go back to aliens.



I see what your saying and I think we have touched upon this issue before. There are scientists considering these possibilities that human consciousness is a fundamental aspect of the universe and in a sense we are are all our own gods. But I have some serious issues with this that I touched upon in "a serious discussion about the nature of mystical experiences" so I won't get into it too much hear you can check the thread if you want but its long.



Ok I see what your saying. That like the aliens planted the seed and occasionally tended to it? While sure thats a possibility just like god interfering with human affairs but I don't see a need to think its happening. But my belief on this is based on well one evolution and how it seems to have gone and also that we have found evidence for the building blocks of life in space (on meteors etc), there may even have been life on mars etc. So it seems like can form spontaneously if the right conditions are there. Of course that life would be very very simple probably just a simple strand of RNA replicating itself (or even simpler).

But the big issue with aliens is one can something travel faster then the speed of light? If it truly cannot then no way have they reached us. Because first they would have had to evolve on their planet (which should take about as long as it took us) and then start traveling which could take millions of years (assuming the mission worked). But if there are ways to skip through space and time (like wormhole ideas) then maybe its possible. Or like the DMT alien ideas that there are other dimensions of space (sort of like in string theory) and that brings up a whole range of interesting possibilities. But of course all this is just speculation. Which is why thinking about it is fun but taking it too seriously is potentially misleading.



I met a guy once who was kicked out of the US coast guard and he was convinced there were aliens and the government had them and he had some stories about how he knew. Did I take him seriously? Well no. But of course many other people think this way. I'll believe it when they uncover the body or the space craft. If there really is a government cover up they are doing a pretty good job although I think the government likes to perpetuate the idea so we are distracted by what they are really up too. But again this is venturing into conspiracy theories which if they lack solid evidence are just that conspiracie theories.



Hahah yes there are plenty of stupid ignorant people in the world. Your not the only one concerned about these things and I think humanity will hopefully in the near future get its shit together. But the world dose need our help and thats why I like to try and be involved in making things better as possible.

Anyway gotta run for today cheers.

Burnt :But the big issue with aliens is one can something travel faster then the speed of light? If it truly cannot then no way have they reached us. Because first they would have had to evolve on their planet (which should take about as long as it took us) and then start traveling which could take millions of years (assuming the mission worked). But if there are ways to skip through space and time (like wormhole ideas) then maybe its possible. Or like the DMT alien ideas that there are other dimensions of space (sort of like in string theory) and that brings up a whole range of interesting possibilities. But of course all this is just speculation. Which is why thinking about it is fun but taking it too seriously is potentially misleading.

I know you will suggest me to read about it, i would like to if you could show where to look. But i saw something on discovery(Sometimes there facts aren't facts even to known science) that said the Theory Of Relativity was proved to be incorrect in a way, because someone found out that information travels faster than the speed of light. How they proved it was, (Forgive my ignorance on this subject) by creating some kind of pair of particals or something(Half asleep when watching), One spun one way, and the other the opposite. When you change the direction of one partical, the other atomaticly corrects its self no mater what the distence is, even light years away. They said its was proved, not theory, but in labs seperated in great distence to break the speed of light.

Yes i also enjoy these conversations. I love to think, and for people to make me think, and for me to make people think. If we all though alot, we probly would probably be in a better situation than are current.

Burnt : I think we may slowly be veering off topic but anyway its fun


lol, i started this topic anyway, i don't care. We talked about it for a while, when you have a good thought, its good to talk about.

O yea, back to aliens. Our universe has been around way longer than the earth even formed, its highly doubtful that we are the first life to acheive intelligence, and as we know intelligence builds as we evolve. Imagine an alien race who acheived our level 1 billion years ago, say they survived. Imagine us reaching that length of existence, how intelligent do you think we would be on our current path. More than likely way more advanced than we could even imagine. Remeber, our length of existence is like a grain of sand on a beach of time. Its very likely many life forms started existence way before our time. Which also make it likely that they could find a way(if possible) to overcome these obsticals you talked about with travel. We know of small worm holes don't we, if we see it as possible perhaps they mastered it. This part even goes along with a DMT experince i read, the DMT aliens told him they where trying to see how they evolved, not to say thats true but still is possible, and if they did not want it to be known world wide wouldn't you think it would be how it is today, lots of people believe it and claim to see it(UFO's/abduction), yet science dosen't have an explanation for it, so world wide its not considered truth. Again not insisting it is this way, but you can see the possibility, its more of a good possibility than most assume to me, the way i see it. I tend to make my own decisions, i don't like to be skeptical because it can detour you, i like to be more curious to learn, i don't think it is true nor false unless i personaly experince it, then i'm still aware that my experince can be misleading.

One more thing, evolution was involved in my theory. You said you don't think that because you believe in evolution, i do to, i wasn't suggesting evolution isn't real. I'm suggesting they planted the seed for us on earth, including the entire chain of evolution on earth.


Burnt: we have found evidence for the building blocks of life in space (on meteors etc), there may even have been life on mars etc. So it seems like can form spontaneously if the right conditions are there.

Exactly! So whats the possibility of us being the first out of the life of the universe? Then whats the possibility that there has been intelligent life compairing how long it took us to evolve to how old the universe is. Then the possibility that they evolved to be able to live in space, not bound to a planet, with all the resources they need in the universe, a billion year old intelligent alien race. Isn't this really just a matter of time for this possibility to occur? How much time has our universe gave for this possibility to occur?


Burnt: Of course that life would be very very simple probably just a simple strand of RNA replicating itself (or even simpler)

Yes, the most of the life that formed, we are rare to sight, because we can't see anyother life with our telescopes. But we have a very limited sight compaired to the universe. There is room for many life forms to have developed, some who never made it past simple, some who made it way beyond like we have talked about, i repeat, there has been plenty enough time for this to occur.

Well then why aren't there enogh jobs to go around, why are people starving because they don't have food to eat?. With plenty of resources and room for humanity this would not be a problem. Maybe we do have room for more, if we let technology catch up with population, because right now it isn't working out that well and if there where way fewer people the problem would be gone. So we are in fact over populated.

and notice the sharp rise in endangered and extinct animals...directly related to human activity...

over harvesting