Well said, Tigerstrike !!

>Let's face facts, most doctors out there are gonna prescribe you some pharmaceutical pill that's probably made with agents like silicon dioxide to make it look shiny and press well. And not some herbal remedy , because it's just easier for them to use the pharma industry with all it's benefits that if the meds they make start killing their patients, then they themselves (doctors) cannot be blamed. This has already been sussed out, and it's why it works like it does IMO.

-Natural plant medicines work well also, but probably don't have the financial backing like pharma industries do.

Saidin, this is just not completely true. How much do you really know about modern medicine? Have you noticed the stunning fact that we can expect to live to the age of 80 instead of 30? That our vaccines keep us free from a lot of diseases? For example small pox, that was responsible for an estimated 300–500 million deaths during the 20th century? Noticed that small pox is as good as gone because of our vaccines now? Here are some other deadly diseases that is prevented by vaccines: Chickenpox, Diphtheria, Haemophilus influenzae type b, Hepatitis: Hep A, Hep B, Human Papillomavirus (HPV) Infection, Measles (Rubeola), Meningococcal, Mumps, Pertussis, Pneumococcal, Polio, Rabies, Rotavirus, Rubella, Shingles, Tetanus. The list goes on...

And what about all the other illnesses that were incurable in the past, but that we can fix now? Tubercolosis, Syphilis, Appendicitis, Bacterial Meningitis, Heart Attack, Detached Retina, Scarlet Fever and Strep Throat, certain types of cancer and the list goes on and on. I could continue all day with examples of how modern medicine works and cures. It does not only treat, Saidin, and if you think so you clearly don't know medicine. Modern medicine saves millions of lives worldwide. Diseases thought incurable can now be cured through the technology and development of modern medicine. Many horrible diseases have now found a place in the list of curable or preventive diseases, and the list grows as more research and hard work is being done in the various fields connected to medicine, such as biology and chemistry.

Alternative medicine has done nothing of this for us. If it had, we would have used it a lot more and it wouldn't have been alternative medicine, simple as that. There is no big conspiracy going on. Sure, some corruption here and there and bad politics and human error, so we have a long way to go still, but no big overall damn conspiracy. Go talk to some doctors at popular hospitals, they probably can't count how many lives they have saved with modern medicine. See with your own eyes how people are not only treated, but are saved and get well again! Open your eyes to the real world, cmon!

I say this for the n-th time: Alternative medicine has been proven, again and again to not work in any significant degree except for placebo. A great amount of effort has been put into checking a bunch of alternative methods, even big money is being promised if anyone can reliably reproduce real physical effects in patients! Real people, that care about saving others and make them better, devoting their whole lives to this task, have spent their time to check out if these methods can help them in treating, curing and saving people. Again and again they are disappointed, because the methods are found to be ineffective.

Well put Citta

I'd just like to suggest that placebo (and nocebo) are (or can create, depending on your perspective) real physical effects. Even though placebo has a negative connotation amongst some ("oh that's just placebo) real world effects are real world effects...dualistic societies just have trouble acknowledging that the mind can work in such a way to cure the body. If I'm prescribed sugar pills for X illness and they cure me through placebo (or treat me...provide a certain level of relief/healing) should I ignore the physical effects as "just placebo"? This is something I feel is often overlooked.

Good point. Though in most cases placebo doesn't really cure, it just makes you feel better and makes life a little bit easier. I am certainly not neglecting the value of this, but from a medical point of view, where a real physical problem is the source of the disease, placebo can be a real trickster. Worst case scenarios - makes you worse because you avoid treatment. Above all, placebo is an interesting effect though, and may have yet to be known potential.

> No, i don't believe that. Let's take psychadelic's for example. The research into them was stopped by the government because of some misinformed decisions. Now that research has slowly re-started, Scientists are starting to make very interesting and positive discoveries.

> I am not anti science, but i am not all for science also. Just because something cannot be proved scientifically, doesn't mean it doesn't work. Can you prove to me what you saw in your dreams last night???

-Some people with heroin addictions would rather take ibogaine and be cured without any withdrawal symptoms, than wait for some stuffy scientist to approve it's safety, and be on methadone for years living a miserable existence....

Yes modern medicine is awesome, better then it was ever before in known history. What alternative medicine is can be argued about but, the common definition is that it includes every medical treatment which is not in the standart use of school medicine. Which does exclude many effective treatments that are used by professional doctors with big minds, hearts and balls...

Please lets not discuss semantics here but agree on one definition when we talk about it so that we speak the same language and can learn from each other more easily.


A lot of medicines are just copied from nature and synthesized, some are extracted and others made from scratch by the ingenuity of very skilled people.
In some countries (e.g. Germany) you also have access to very good standardized real plant medicines, made by pharmaceutical companies btw.
Those are usually not covered by public health insurance of course. But some doctors are informed about it and prescribe it for certain conditions.
Pharma supports the government the government supports pharma.


But about cancer treatment specifically there is something really strange going on.

With all that money flowing into the research and "alternative treatments" using immune therapies achieving consistently better results then the standard protocols i wonder why there is no broader sphere questioning the efficiency of the current treatment protocols in this field and making more non profit funding trials
There are some public advancements in the direction of immune targeted therapies but no blessed approach to actually "repair" the function of the immune system. Which plays a key role here.


Anyways

Many psychiatric diseases can be treated with maintenance therapy (antidepressants and similar) and although helping many people with it its certainly not the most effective way to deal with real mental issues.

Psychedelics have consistently shown good results with crazy people in the past, also certain forms of "electromedicine" have had 100% cure rate for for example paranoid schizophrenics with hallucinations, 20.000+ of such patients with a russian machine i know quite well about.


Sorry for drifting now into the slightly subjective.

I dont know so much about Autoimmune diseases and aids but it has the same stink to it as the above mentioned.

Sorry man, we made: large hadron colliders, can clone animals, design and make several kinds of microorganisms, remote control insects, build simple AI, facebook and iphones! But we cant figure out these diseases sorry, but here is some candy to take while you're sick so you feel better. Yes yes suck my dicky...

Not cool



One thing i find is pretty cool is that placebos even work when people that take them know that it is a placebo. I already see the placebo labeled products on the shelves...

ibogaine use is very safe under the supervision of a specifically trained anesthesiologist... safety is not the issue

The codex alimentarius for example, the ban of many herbal remedies from the EU shelves due to safety concerns after sometimes decades of continued use by the consumer.

:evil:

Thank you, Bindu for your balanced response.

CHOICE- where would we be without it ??

-Regards, Chris.

Two things:

First, science doesn't prove things, despite many of its critics taking aim at that nonexistent "flaw".

Second, the issues underlined here and in some other posts by you/bindu/others are political, not scientific.

Pharmaceuticals is an industry which is ruled by economics and politics, not by science.
If a pharmaceutical company is being unethical and immoral it's because
the laws governing the industry are unethical and immoral.
If companies use unethical means to maximize profits that's incredibly sad but in no way can someone
blame science (or "stuffy scientists" for it.

""""First, science doesn't prove things, despite many of its critics taking aim at that nonexistent "flaw"."""

-Of course man uses science to prove things.....

Don't be obtuse.

Scientific laws describe things; they don't explain them.

Science can refute a theory or support a theory, but it can’t prove a theory. If science consistently refutes a theory then it typically falls from favor to be replaced by another. If science fails to refute a theory, that theory stands as the most current understanding and it will remain until science demonstrates differently. However, at no point should that theory be considered proven.

Moar

A note about placebo: while it may effect one physically, these effects are neither reliable nor reproducible. So a reliance on placebo is a false palliative at best, and a crock at worst. I'll read more of the thread and see if I have anything to add. An old debate, but interesting nonetheless!!

JBArk

Citta, would you put psychedelic therapy into the category of "modern" or "alternative" medicine?

Psychedelic therapy is therapy, not medicine.

JBArk

Modern medicine. It has been used before, it is being used now (just not to any great extent because of the law and stuff like that) and research has been done and shown that it can treat psychiatric disorders. It's just not widespread, that's all. We may say that it is at an experimental stage, or something like that ^^

But uhm, on a second note, that's a tough question! Some would probably say alternative, and I guess that wouldn't be all too wrong either. If however, we are to call it alternative medicine, psychedelic therapy certainly falls in under the 1% of alternative medicine that is not bunk.

jbark, tho I see your point, the term "Medicine" may actually involve psychotherapy.

To distance psychedelics from science/medicine (as some have done) is a false dichotomy that results from the political climate. If you look back over ~50+yrs you can find a plethora of entheogens/psychs being studied/applied scientifically. Alternative medicine may make use of some substances, but when there are biological pathways that allow substances to work, that qualifies as science/legit medicine, imo.

Well put. I will stand behind this one

Something I just wanted to point out in relation to the placebo/nocebo effects is that more important than simply, "here take this and it'll make you better" and then maybe you are, maybe you aren't. But establishing a healthy psyche and general states of positivity (all the time, not just when you get sick and go take a pill) are clinically proven to boost the immune system (thus prolonging states of good health). There are numerous psychosomatic disorders (i.e. ulcers) often manifest themselves from stress and negativity and D.O.s in osteopathy often stress this side to staying healthy much more than M.D.s

I know enough about modern medicine. Though not a doctor myself, my brother is one as is one of my best friends, I have a brain, I read, I converse with knowledgeable people, I've gone to see the pill pushers from time to time, etc, etc...So don't attempt an Ad Hominem attack to bolster your opinion by falsely implying that I don't know what I'm talking about.

The stunning fact is that people for thousands of years have lived to the age of 80 or more. The fact that we have better methods of treating diseases, as well as injuries that would have killed people in the past is a great testament to the progress of medicine. That being said, those 'treatments' have nothing to do with preventing causes. Sure its a lot easier to live longer when tumors can be cut out, or irridated, or burned with chemicals. Or a broken leg, or abcesed tooth can be mended or fixed. But my ponit stands, modern medicine has done pitifully little to address the causes of many of these problems. They are fantasitic at dealing with things after the fact, but almost completelly ignore the root causes for the problems that they treat.

Did you know that in the majority of medical schools there are no courses on nutrition? The one singular thing that has been proven time and time again to be the basis for the overwhelming majority of health problems is completely ignored by the 'modern' medical establishment.

Vaccines are great in some senses but they themselves have spawned other problems. Some of the disorders and diseases that have been scientifically proven to be linked to vaccinations and vaccine injury include: Chronic Fatigue Syndrome; ALS; Lupis; Crippling Rheumatoid Arthritis; Stephen-Johnson Syndrome; Fibromyalgia; Adult and Juvenile Type 1 Diabetes; Bells Palsy; Crohn's Disease; Autism. Just to name a few. Plus the vast majority of cases you see of mumps, measles and the like occur in people who have been vaccinated!



How does modern medicine prevent any of the things you mentioned? All it does is treat. After the fact, reactive. Where is the proactive branch of 'modern' medicine that works to prevent any of these issues from happening in the first place? It doesn't, for that you have to look to 'alternative' medicine. What diseases have been cured, and not simply been put into remission or maintained through a costly and potentially equally harmful regimen of phamaceutical drugs?



How can you possibly say this with any true conviction? You cannot possibly know what alternative medicine has or has not done for people over the thousands of years its been practiced. The fact that it has been, and continues to be practiced proves that it does have benefit for some. Maybe not you, and that's fine, but every person is different and what works for one does not necessairly mean it will work for another.

And sure, I can go to a hospital and see the great things that modern medicine does. My friend is an ER surgeon, and does amazing things and saves lives everyday. But it remains true that is is reactive, after the fact, non-preventitive. Maybe if they had taken some herbs from a chinese medicine practioner, or gotten acupuncture, done hypnotheapy, or seen a naturopathic doctor they wouldn't have ended up there in the emergency room being treated for something that could have been prevented.



And what is the placebo effect anyway? Mind over matter, simple belief facilitating healing. Sounds pretty alternative to me...