What a load of crap. Anybody who dosn't understand what an entheogen is better take note. Of course MDMA is an entheogen. This is our entheogen. Indians in the Amazon have theirs, Raindeer herders of the tundra have theirs, we have ours. So the rave culture dosn't worship some suprenatural sky spirit, as our ancestors did. But what do you think replaced it? So we are not a predominantly religious people any longer, but we still have a yearning for spiritual experiance and a feeling of togetherness. MDMA provides that in spades.

You ingest some molecule or other, wether it be 2cb, methylone, MDMA, cylocybin etc. you have taken an entheogenic substance. If you choose to interperate anything that has come out of a laboratry as being non-entheogenic, you are missing the point entirely. The context is the crucial determinator. For some the rave is a church for others a camp fire.


Cut and paste from Wikipedia...

An entheogen, in the strictest sense, is a psychoactive substance used in a religious or shamanic (or entheogenic) context. Entheogens generally come from plant sources which contain molecules closely related to endogenous neurochemicals. They occur in a wide variety of psychedelics of various religious rites and have been shown to directly provoke what users perceive as spiritual or mystical experiences (see Good Friday Experiment). In a broader sense, the word "entheogen" refers to any molecule which stimulates the central nervous system through one of the two main neurological pathways: phenethylamine (which is a brain chemical associated with the adrenaline pathway, and a precursor of mescaline and 2C-B) and tryptamine (a brain chemical associated with the natural metabolism of serotonin, a precursor of psilocin, psilocybin, DMT, and LSD).[1] Cooper, Bloom and Roth describe the metabolic pathways by which these neurochemicals are produced in the body.[2] Through enzyme reactions, the brain creates more complex molecules with a higher binding affinity with unique neurological and cognitive results. See Federal Analog Act.

These chemicals, whose use predate written language, are the essence of the entheogens and are banned. Entheogens are molecules which induce alterations of consciousness identical in many ways to those documented for ritual ingestion of traditional shamanic inebriants. Examples are far reaching ancient sources predating the modern era: such as Greek: kykeon; African: Iboga; Vedic: Soma, Amrit. Entheogens have been safely utilized in a ritualized context for thousands of years.



If you allow others to dictate to you what is or what isn't an legitamate entheogen, you are allowing those who wish to supress our activities another victory. Stop doing it you ought to know better. I am fed up of hearing people say mushrooms are, Cannabis may be, MDMA isnt but 2CB can be. They all can be and all can't be depending on what you consider an entheogen is. I know where I stand on this matter and its with the indians.

i agree, mdma is natural anyway, it came from the universe , its allabout how you use these tools that makes them entheogenic..

SWIM generally only uses substances under entheogenic context but feels there are plenty of substances he couldn't take in that way. Hell, there are even certain dosages and methods of taking some recognized entheogens that wouldn't live up to SWIM's standards for the term. For example, smoking salvia is not entheogenic for SWIM, though chewing it could possibly be. SWIM can even use cocaine in an entheogenic manner, though he would never smoke or shoot up and is very cautious about the dosage and frequency of use.

MDMA can certainly be used in an entheogenic manner. If one takes one's life and one's activities in spiritual context, any psychoactive substance one ingests is entheogenic, though such a person would likely be quite discerning in the matter.

The physical or emotional toll a psychedelic takes on an individual is no way to gauge entheogenic qualities, unless its simply the individuals prerogative to consider it in that way. SWIM values his low states and most of his bad trips as integral to the entheogenic experience.

I think i like MDEA more, then i like MDMA. MDMA is just something in between MDEA and MDA, to my opinion.
Besides, most people who think they ever had MDMA, probably had MDEA or some other MDMA variation. Those do-it-yourself test-kits can't tell the difference, anyway.

Couldn't agree more and I do not consider MDMA an entheogen. I feel MDMA has bad effects on my brain chemistry and makes me depressed afterwards. I feel the high is fake and very superficial.

But you're trying to dictate to others that MDMA is a legimate entheogen. And then you tell us not to do it! How fuckt is that?

i just don't think mdma is of much use / i find it holds no benefits. it doesnt last long enough. and it burns you out pretty good. be it an entheogen or not. it is not my cup of tea.. however others have their own view of things and thats what makes all of this exciting.

its just that mdma to me seems to be a tiny part of the whole psychedelic experience. i rather take substances which take me through various levels of changes. for example an hour or so after the peak of a mushroom trip i feel the same way as on mdma. infinite love, clear thought, empathic feelings twoards other people/animals/nature. i think there is a reason for first experiencing terror and then experiencing bliss. mdma avoids terror and enters bliss right away. in my opinion this is not the real way to choose. mdma doesnt let you face your inner demons. to me its just another antidepressant. and like DMTripper says.. to me it also feels somewhat like false happiness.

but to each his own!

I am in no way attempting to dictate to you, what you should think an entheogen is. I am merely telling you what I think of disscusions on what entheogens are or aren't

I'm sure it's classified as a mild psychedelic. I think I actually read that in Rick Strassman's book. Don't quote me though that was a few yrs ago.
Any how I couldn't agree more about the rave culture being a series of spiritual events. My first awakenings happened through MDMA on the dance floor! Infact it was those experiences that changed me completely and as a result I stumbled across DMT.
The MDMA high is beautiful but it depends on the user. If they don't have it in them to see it's beauty then they won't. In the same way that some cannot see the depth of a DMT journey. I must admit though that people at parties just aren't the same anymore and the spiritual element has been depleted; but in the yrs that have gone by when I used to party boy it was something magical.
Anyway I don't really take MDMA anymore because it delivered me where it had to and there just isn't any point to it. Having said that I have a very special place in my heart for it and a lot of whom I've become is attributed to MDMA.

BTW try launching while on MDMA. It's beautiful when you return from hyperspace while peaking.

heres a good vid on MDMA if you have the time..shows both sides of the story..
http://www.youtube.com/w...lI&feature=quicklist

I personally do love MDMA , and consider it entheogenic.
It has already proven to be highly useful in Psychotherapy..

I also like to combine pure MDMA with my Mushrooms .

MDMA is entheogenic ONLY in the right company.

Otherwise it's just a night of lies. "They only love you when they're high"

I have used MDMA as an entheogen...yes the after effects are pretty rough, but I find that with all phens, even mescaline.

I have used MDMA as an entheogen...yes the after effects are pretty rough, but I find that with all phens, even mescaline.

I actually quite like the taste.

Do you guys have problems getting pure mdma? Is that just a US thing?

I think that mdma has its place, definitely. Personally speaking I rarely use it at all these days, because it takes too much out of me. But it mixes very nicely with other drugs, particularly acid, and it makes K actually a worthwhile experience rather than cold and vacuous.

I've connected more deeply with people on mdma than anything else. This could be because such a tiny percentage of my acquaintances are open to other entheogens and mdma is the only thing available, but I learnt a lot about myself and my place in the world on it, especially in the early days. It worked wonders for my confidence, for the way I interacted with other people.

I think mdma is definitely useful, just look at the way it was being used to help PTSD sufferers. The danger with mdma is the fact that it's a quick fix to feeling good. I've known many people who have become dependent on it, taking it every weekday for example, and one girl who used to take it by itself. That's the danger, but then everything has dangers. In this case I think the benefits outweigh the bad points.

I have taken many substances, many different times, in combination with other substances, etc etc etc.... but the most bizarre experience of my life, is still an MDMA experience. It was a serious lesson in consciousness, it changed my life. theres no way I will ever be able to explain it, partly because I don't remember very much of it.

It was my third time with MDMA, I took less than 2 pills and I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT HAPPENED TO ME.

I absolutely feel that MDMA is an entheogen. However it ceases being an entheogen when you get wasted on it constantly and blow all your money on shitty raves. I don't really use it anymore mostly because I feel like it has taught me everything it has to teach and it destroys me the next day.

Yes, the MD's are entheogenic and i find that in how they're entheogens, they're 'inferior' forms of mescaline.

But the truth is that the fact that this question is being asked says everything about the psychedelic status of the MD's; they're clearly more than 'just fun', otherwise this question wouldn't be asked (nobody except the late jim morrison considers alcohol an entheogen), but they clearly lack the depth of Mescaline, LSD, DMT, etc.

cut and paste from magic clown/wikipedia:

An entheogen, in the strictest sense, is a psychoactive substance used in a religious or shamanic (or entheogenic) context. Entheogens generally come from plant sources which contain molecules closely related to endogenous neurochemicals....

MDMA used in a religious or shamanic context? I disagree. most modern westerners use MDMA recreationaly, to have fun and get high. I cannot see any examples in modern culture where it is used in a religious or shamanic context. Although the pre-cursors to MDMA can be sourced from plant sources it clearly does not closely relate to endogenous neurochemicals.

I am with the lorax and dmtripper on this one. MDMA(MDA,MDEA) are not positive drugs for me any more, and I would not consider them entheogens at all. The after effects are absolutely horrible and the love it forces me to feel is totally fake. It has gotten to the stage now when after I come down from the high, I look back at the way I was feeling/thinking and most of the time I cannot retain any meaningful, positive effects for my life... The 4-5 days it takes to fully recover makes it simply not worth it for me any more. The perspective that Jorkest shared after watching his friends interact while he was on the tail end of a pharmausaca journey is particularly poignant. I would like to offer the advice of keeping this in mind while introspectively analyzing yourself while in the peak of an MDMA experience.

It can be used for beneficial purposes such as psycho-therapy and Post traumatic stress.

mdma can also be somewhat usefull when combined with spice. I used to enjoy this combination quite often. However I have come to understand that I was being shown how to focus on unconditional love during a journey. Relying on MDMA to provide this false love is not the key. But it did provide me some amazing experiences and helped change my entheogenic practice with the spice

Well, if scientists and doctors are the priesthood of modern western culture, then MDMA could be said to be used in a religious context: MDMA-assisted psychotherapy. Such sessions have profoundly helped some people overcome debilitating emotional problems--until Daddy government stopped the "ceremonies" for our own good....

I concider it an entheogen; in fact I prefer it as a healing tool.
MDMA needs a shaman to guide a small group of people through the journey, otherwise it just turns into an "i love u all" fest.

I was shaman for two of my friends at the lowest point in their lives. The results were dramatic, and life altering for them. One of them was able to discard a life of hate and resentment built while growing up in south africa (he's gen y white man, the underclass in SA). It changed his outlook completely, as he had never let himself feel love and feel loved.
The other student finally was able to admit he had same sex attractions, and is now is living a fulfilled life.

I have hosted healing sessions for dozens of people, even some of whom who have already had MDMA and not realised the healing significance of how MDMA can open access to your whole psyche to your upper cortex for logical thought.

I have not had it in a while, several years now. SWIM is searching for the same in other drugs and is keeping me informed.

Thanks Shulgin.

Yes I forgot about that- it is a psychological tool. It was developed as a marriage counselling aid. I've heard it's good for post traumatic stress disorder. And all sorts of psychology needs in the video posted (thanks Fractal Enchantment, it was great- who'd've thought MDMA took off thanks to a vicar!) Used in moderation, a very useful medicine. Psychologists should undoubtedly be allowed to give it to patients.
But from what SWIM has personally seen not good when taken too often, weekly or more in the cases he's seen.