The last thing i want to do is criticize peoples beliefs... I'm not sure how to proceed with this discussion.
While i do not deny the benefits that can be had from ingesting plants, cultivating ritual and meditative states,
I don't feel the need to subscribe to an arcane antiquated belief system.

Alchemy is quirky and almost chemistry... I like chemistry. Doesn't mean I believe alchemy to be a legitimate method of forming a world view.

Furthermore, Shamanism (from Siberia) and its sister systems in South America and the like are culturally irrelevant to me. I did not grow up completely within the rain forest surrounded by plants. I was not isolated from education about the big bang, subatomic particles and thermodynamics. So i do not need to build belief systems that take into account the immediate environment and nothing else. My lens is cast toward a deeper focus.

My ancestors and history has been mapped using archeological evidence, there are story's abound of many men and women great heroes of the earth that existed beyond doubt. I need not superstition to create my world view.

There is plenty of mystery in my life without fabricating more.

Please don't quote and nitpick every last word i posted here. Im trying to give a general idea my cultural framework through which i view this subject.

The science speaks for itself. A molecule of DMT from a plant is identical to a molecule of DMT from a lab. Change the shape of a DMT molecule and it is no longer DMT.
Below that your talking about atoms which are identical.
Everything is natural, human beings are part of nature there is no separation and that includes our synthetic perversions.

If there is some underlying information/data/intelligence in organic matter that we do not understand then so be it. But i have yet to see any evidence there for i cannot deny it to exist or prove that it does.

Some things may exist that we lack means of detection. Perhaps this is one of those. But i hold the view that DMT is DMT, no matter where it came from.

Also the variability in DMT experiences leads me to wonder how viable it would be to even detect a difference in biosynthetic DMT vs synthetic DMT.

..i said BLIND TEST (3 subjects, 3 correct answers)...presumption without data is not science....

(the subjects were aware that the difference was being tested...my point is that the penultimate scientific test to prove either way hasn't been done)..

One thing that would be worth noting for sake of covering bases is the 'morphogenetic field.' It's all a theory, anyways, but if you extracted the DMT from a natural source, some of the sources morphogenetic field would come with it. Theoretically speaking, a lab made molecule would not have that morphogenetic field. This is the only difference between the two molecules. Whether or not that field would contribute to an altered state of consciousness seems dependent on whether or not you're receptive to said field.

meh.

didn't know the theory behind it but now I do, thank you.

Also aren't there studies proving that the same molecule (water) can be seen under microscope as either a crystalline structure or a dirty mess based on the energy put into it?

I also believe there have been studies done where plants were hooked up to machines and could detect hostile intentions from a human in close proximity.

Point is, there is much more than meets the eye. Nothing is for certain except just that. Nothing.

I think if someone was synthesizing dmt with good in their heart it would transfer over without a doubt. Just the same I feel like one experienced in the astral realms would feel any negativity if indeed present. Same for the plants, but I personally feel that most plants carry with them the spirit of Gaia, which is undoubtedly of love. She can be upset I think however, and will show it if she feels fit. My experiences match this belief, however just the same the belief could have shaped the experiences No way to know for sure, the ball is always in your court for these sort of things.

Link?

An after thought, the number of people believing in something does nothing to aid its legitimacy. Scientific discovery's which our society is built upon are often found by one person/lab/research team not millions. These discovery's gain legitimacy through repeatable experiments and evidence. A counter example would be the millions of people that follow illegitimate religions.

I would also mention my views do not mean i do not respect culturally the practices of shamans and the like. I find great value in the messages from our rain forest based peoples whom live in one of Earths most valuable assets in a sustainable way.

EDIT: I also value the framework in which shamanism and the like provide when dealing with powerful psychedelics. It gives a sense of legitimacy to what can be to the western world a volatile subject. This allows people to experience the wonder of Ayahuasca and the like while having something to hold onto.
I guess here in the western world we don't really have a cultural framework in which to imbibe the sacraments. This i feel is something we need to address if they are ever to be legally de restricted.

There is no venom in my words, and i respect others rights to believe whatever they want.

Sorry if this seems off topic. To me it does not.

http://www.hado.com.au/crystals.htm


water exposed to the word "angel"







water exposed to the word "devil"

Masaru Emoto is not taken seriously in the scientific community. He has insufficient experimental controls and he does not share enough details with the rest of the community. He has also been criticized for designing experiments in a way that really opens up for human error influencing the results. He also readily admits he is not a scientist, and his photographers are known to choose the most pleasing pictures. On top of that he sells products based on his claims without presenting any decent scientific research references that backs it up, which is a big no-no sign for his scientific credibility, and not to say the least a serious ethical issue. He is a fraud, and his super water is bullshit.

Crystalization of various materials is a big business. The quality and type of crystalization figures prominantly into profit margins. I would think if positive/negative energy influences the process, they would have adampted it to large scale manufacture by now.

Statistical significance with 3 tests is close enough to 0 to be disregarded. Repeat several times. then we might know.

Plus there's a bunch of other questions like, blind or double blind? How was it given by experimenter? Could there have been non-verbal cues?

What was the smoking method? How pure were the two compounds, how did they look like? Could there have been a definite difference in taste due to impurities? etc etc


And Heretic, as citta said, emoto's "experiments" are not science, they are not reproducible.

endlessness wrote

...obviously this was not a formal experiment..with one person co-ordinating, three people wanted to see if they could tell what the origin of the vaped dmt was..the two materials looked virtually identical (pale yellow crystaline powder), the purified plant extract was 98%pure(this is partly behind my Polymorphism 2nd Attempt question in Advanced Chemistry)..there were no possible cues/clues..
..while the overall subjective effects of synthetic vs purified extract were almost identical, based on 'vibe' or 'intuition whilst under the effects', all subjects (given three random samples) said they could pick the
origin of the dmt (& apparently did so.)
..my scientific argument would be that even trace substances (less than 2%) can make a difference..
without a formal study the 'reasonable' argument that the dmt effects are identical, whatever the source, is still speculation...

[/quote]
synthetic is still created by the universes
its your perspective that synthetic is unnatural not the universe's
unnatural is a word we say to get the thought in our head that its unnatural to us not the universe 's
one might look at a star pumping out elements the same as a chicken pooping out eggs, or a human baking a cake. External or internal we are still all one in the same so i dont see any reason for nn-dmt to be looked down upon[/quote]


very well put>