..there's a lot of old mythology in Aus about people smoking Bufo Marinus (cane toad) venom.. (have not tried myself)
Cane Toads are a major pest/invasive species in Australia..here is a link to an hilarious 1988 documentary called Cane Toads: An Unnatural History
..go to 7 minute point & see a man describe effects of smoking B. alvaris venom.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=...oiTY&feature=related
The rest of the toad, however, is another matter. It was reported in the paper here about 10 years ago that a uni. student (as a dare) ate
cane toad ovaries...they had multiple heart attacks and almost died in hospital. The rest of the toad contains highly poisonous cardiac bufotoxins.
Unconfirmed country mythology suggests it is only 'safe' to smoke (not orally ingest) the gland exudates (venom)...

I should have specified..I was referring to this..

"I am not blaming the nexus for your post. If you read other threads about bufo's there is a common attitude on the nexus towards having a bufo toad 'in a glass box'. I honestly feel that the people that like tell others it is cruel to have a toad and or milk a toad should shut up and contribute something worth reading. If anyone has a problem with animals in a glass box go cry about it on a forum that's about reptiles and other caged pets, if you do you'll get laughed out of the forum."

THANCK YOU !!!

Lets get into this, plants in a green house. Or how about indoor cultivators of horticulture. How would you like to live in a bucket with artificial sunlight? Do you protest people having indoor plants? How about pruning your plants??? Ouch chopping off their limbs so you can get a better harvest?? how barbaric. I am sure you would say they are in you house only because they are beautiful. They are just as pretty in nature so leave them in nature and quit imprisoning their existence. until you free your house plants and yard plants you are hypocritical.

Prove that the toads do not produce venom in captivity. Not hear say but facts to back your claim.

Not sure, do you milk them ? if so how is the extract like ?

NotSure, In the wild Bufos live underground much of the year. In the winter, it's like a hibernation and in the summer, it's a way to get out of the heat. I've seen them in the wild, at night, swimming in pools of water looking for mates (and mating) during the rainy season. I've also watched them come out of their holes at night when it is cool out. If I'm not mistaken, they really spend most of the year underground except during mating season when it is wet.

Someone who keeps Bufos as a pet probably wouldn't be so interested in having a cage where the animal lives hidden underground for 10 months out of a year. I would think most Bufo owners would like to be able to look at the Bufos and wouldn't try or be able to create the environment that causes the long hibernation. Some Bufo owners might live in a place where the right environment exists outside naturally.

I know there has been trouble breeding them in captivity. I'm wondering if the reason is that most captive environments can't mimic the seasonal conditions that cause (or allow) extensive hibernation underground. I actually would love to keep Bufos but I would feel too guilty (just my feeling, not a moral jugement) taking something out of it's best natural environment for a hobby. I would own a captive bred Bufo. I own captive bred dogs and they are pretty happy. If I really knew what I was doing and could give them a home as good as the wild, I'd feel differently about owning wild caught Bufos but I wouldn't want to be learning what's best for them at their expense.

So I'm curious about your breeding effort. Have you been able to breed Bufos? Do you have an environment that mimics their natural habitat? Do you think it might be possible that the difficulty with captive breeding might have something to do with the difficulty of creating that environment that causes the Bufos to hibernate so long? Even though we may have different thoughts about owning wild caught Bufos, I think what you're doing is very cool. I'd like to hear about anything interesting about how your toads are doing.

I worry about the spin of the documentary a little bit. Not necessarily the 'drugs are bad' spin, but more the 'entertainment' instead of informative spin. The goal of television is entertainment not information. What does not entertain will not be shown. Or I guess I worry a little about the trivialization of the rituals or experience. If ayahuasca ever comes up in conversation, it's about Anthony Bourdain being really f****d up on it, and the gnarly vomiting, hardly the profound significance or impact on the person's life. Not saying that this is what the documentary will be like, and I am glad information is being distributed to people and minds are being opened, I just am skeptical of what people might take from it. But all one can do is hope for the best! To answer your question, I don't have any experience with the venom. Sorry to fret about your topic, don't mean to hijack it, just a concerned human.

First off you should go outside at night more and you will see more of the toads out of their burrow. They are nocturnal. Burring winter they will burrow for days at a time until the are hungry, then they will come out of their burrow for food. Yes they do that all winter in nature as well. Their hibernation is not like a bears.

The toads I own were captive bread......it is possible and happens, I know the people who can do it and will have them help me in breeding. And by your 'standards' that is ok.

I do not understand how you can own dogs and then say all you have said to me about owning toads. It makes you a hypocrite. And may I ask how well you are creating their natural environment? They are pack animals, do you own an entire pack of dogs? And how have you trained them to be obedient to you?? I didn't know packs of dogs were obedient in nature to humans. I have never heard of pack dogs rolling over and begging for treats.

I also want to go further into this mind set you are spewing out. If you feel that way about living beings then you will not own a house plants or a house for that matter. Do you were clothes? Do you realize what was done to the plants to get the fabric you have on your back??? How do you eat? Cause I know that you wouldn't ever want murder another living thing. I can go on and on about how ridiculous you are being but I think my point was made.

And No I have not milked my toads.

@ NotSure,
Please, I am not trying to pick a fight. I am also not judging that what you are doing is wrong. Others may have said things that sounded like that, but not me. I do have concerns about someone who would keep toads without understanding there's a big responsibility required to give them what they need to be healthy. I imagine the mortality rate for Bufo tadpoles in the wild is huge. If someone gives them proper treatment, I could imagine the toads could be better off in captivity.

Negative comments I made had to do with the thought of an ignorant or an inconsiderate person who would buy toads without knowing, thinking or caring about the work required to do a good job keeping toads. I never meant to say you were like that and from the sounds of it, you know and care a lot about keeping your toads well. So please, I meant no offense to you. I think reptiles are not so easy to keep and my comments were about the idea of an idiot keeping toads poorly. I think you would agree it would be a shame for an animal to be kept poorly for the purpose of getting high.

I actually kept a turtle for many years. One day I walked into an Asian grocery store with my daughter and they were selling live Sliders for food. I think they were around $2.00/pound and so I bought one for around $2.50 and it stayed in my daughter's room in a "glass box" for around 8 years. It was a very cool animal and I have no guilt at all because it would have been shortly eaten if we didn't buy it.

I actually do have a dog pack. It's not a large pack but it is a pack and there are strict rules within the dog community at my house. If you own two dogs it's very simple, one becomes dominant and the other does what he's told. Whenever there is more than two, the dynamics change. In my tri-pack, one dog is dominant but other more complicated things happen as well. The other two dogs sometimes contest for the #2 spot. The smaller of the three wants the #2 job and the middle dog often lets small infractions slide. Whenever there are big stakes (like a bone), size will carry the day. There's always complex interactions going on that are hard to understand being outside the pack.

As far as me being the ultimate pack leader, my largest dog gives a great deal of respect to me without me even asking for it. He likes order and showing me respect seems to give him a sense of stability. There's much more to say about this, but yes, my 3 dogs practice pack behavior. You should see what happens when they come across another dog they don't know. They act as a tight unit to interrogate smells and body language etc. They seem to like living with me. I often let them run loose in the woods. They could run away any time they want...but they won't. In fact, one might stray off a bit, but they keep constant tabs on where the group is.

Lastly regarding the dogs, these are all adopted dogs. I am concerned about the idea of puppy mills and other negative stories you hear about the dog breeding business. The dogs needed a home and now they have a good one. There may be a better environment for them than my home somewhere, but they like where they are and don't spend time trying to leave. I think they are pretty happy dogs.

On to toads: I did see them at night, lots of them. They have a very cool presence as if they were much smarter than I give them credit. They didn't like me approaching them closer than a few feet, but they seemed happy for us to check each out from a greater distance. I really did like being around them. I wish I could keep them but I think it would be very hard to re-create the environment I saw them in. I'll just visit them when I can.

As far as a hypocrite, you are right, but not for the reason you mentioned. I eat meat and am contributing to an industry that routinely mistreats animals (not to mention the pollution and climate change effects). I've drastically cut down on meat consumption, but I like it and have not completely stopped. Lately I'm trying to eat locally raised grass fed cows whenever I eat beef. It's much more expensive but I'll just eat less. As I said, I'm not judging your toad raising as immoral. I think it's cool, especially if the toads are captive bread and well treated. I am a total hypocrite about animal cruelty issues since I eat agri-business meat.

I suppose you can also call me a bleeding heart animal lover. I work with a local wild animal rescue group that cares for wounded or orphaned mammals. I do that because it makes me feel good to see the animals get rehabilitated. During that process we keep the animals in cages so I don't have a strict problem with wild animals in cages. I even build the cages that keep them captive. (Most animals are let free at the proper time if they seem able to make it on their own).

I do tell my vegan friends that plants have feelings too (but as a joke to get them off my back for eating meat). I raise some tropical plants outside in the summer and I'll tell you, they are not happy when I bring them in for winter. I am pretty sure all living things are connected much more than we know. To me, protecting the whole ecosystem is what's important. Wild animals are meant to kill and eat other wild animals. It's a necessary part of nature. If an idiot gets a toad and inadvertently mistreats it to satisfy his own pleasure, that seems like a waste of a life. I'm not so sure we can say that someone who does that is part of a natural process.

To be honest, you are raising toads and seem to be knowledgeable and good at it. I don't have a problem with that. I don't feel I could do it well and so I don't. I cringe at the thought of an idiot raising a toad carelessly just to get high. I would like to raise toads myself but I am a toad idiot and so I won't. I can't speak for others but I don't think anyone wants to change your mind about your toad raising. People said what they think and I don't think anyone really needs to change or judge your toad raising. I am very, very interested in these creatures because of the contact I have had with them. I'm hoping you will tell us all about them in a way that won't make an idiot want to mistreat toads.

I'm trying to be humble and genuine. Who knows, maybe after learning more about how you keep them I could feel comfortable keeping my own? Some of my comments probably have been made out of ignorance and presumption. If I offended you or made you uncomfortable posting your thoughts on Nexus, I am sorry. I'm trying to move past this and am hoping to learn from you. Perhaps I did 'spew first and ask second'. Can you let that go if I promise to be more thoughtful in the future? Again, I can't speak for others, but I'd like to hear more about your toad experiences.

Finally, it's hard to get the tone of a conversation right with text. Some of my words may not have been interpreted as I meant them. Could you give me a little slack because of this? If we were talking face to face, you would see my genuine interest. We would have moved quickly beyond the 'animals in a glass box' topic (or not done it at all) and I would be asking questions faster than you could answer them to learn about these very cool animals.

Thanks.....cker

"I do not understand how you can own dogs and then say all you have said to me about owning toads. It makes you a hypocrite. And may I ask how well you are creating their natural environment? They are pack animals, do you own an entire pack of dogs? And how have you trained them to be obedient to you?? I didn't know packs of dogs were obedient in nature to humans. I have never heard of pack dogs rolling over and begging for treats."

Te be fair, trying to compare keeping a toad in a little glass tank to having a dog, which can walk around the yard freely and go for walks etc(without a leash) is moronic. Talk about stretching an analogy.

Dogs, when walked every day and given proper attention like to be in the company of people. This is why they call them "mans best friend"..they form bonds with other humans and get attached to them to the point where they refuse to leave them..sorry but toads do not do that.

Your analogy is rediculous. Come back with something better than that and you might seem at least somewhat logical. Why people make stupid arguements like this I dont know. I am sorry, this probably offends you but I really think that is a stupid point to try to make.

$ .02...
Time for this thread to cool a bit, perhaps? Seems folks may be treading uncomfortably close to ad hominem arguments.
I personally have no problem with keeping amphibians as pets, as long as: 1) they are kept healthy and an effort is made to learn about (from!) and appreciate them; 2) the species or local populations are not put in danger. I also accept that others have different opinions and beliefs concerning these things. The ethics of human/other nature interaction and agency are fascinating and complex. Open and thoughtful discussion is essential.
L

I dont see what needs to be cooled down really. I just dont see how trying to relate having dogs as pets to toads as pets is relevant at all. It is a comparison that is rediculous and anyone who knows anything about both canines and amphibians should be able to see why.

When someone tries to make a point like that that really does not seem to be a stable point by any means, I dont think that we should have to just agree with them. Some points are stupid to try to make. I stick by that. Especially when the person trying to make iffy points seems to be overly agressive when anyone challenges the stance they are taking here in the thread..they should be told to come back with something a little more relevant.

Dogs can easily be domesticated. they bond with humans..they love the humans that take care of them, walk them, feed them and play with them. They will happily come when you call them by name. They will willingly follow you around even without a leash and sleep on your bed with you. Toads on the other hand would most likely rather just be left alone to the ponds, rivers or deserts etc they naturally inhabit. Humans dont live in ponds or rivers, period. Humans cannot let toads just hop around the hosue or back yard and walk them aimlessly through the bush for house. You cant really play with a toad. Toads dont show any interest or affection towards humans that keep them. Toads dont care about what name you try to call them by..they wont come.

You see how trying to say that people who have dogs as pets are hippocrates when if they feel differently about keeping toads is a point that holds no real substance? It makes absolutily no sense. A better point might be to say that if you dont personally enjoy living in a little area the size of your room for the rest of your life, than you are a hippocrate if you think it is not somewhat cruel to do that to a toad.

Whats negative is a person who knows nothing about me thinking I will not take care of my toads properly. Shame on your assumptions.

You know nothing about toads if you think you cannot bond with them. They do interact with you and tel you what they want when they want it. They tell me when they are hungry or if I am changing their water to slowly. they have a lot of personality. I can tell each one of my toads apart almost immediately.

Go find a wild dog (not a stray domesticated dog) and make friends with it. I bet it will kick yer butt and not want anything to do with you. SO by you reasoning you should leave it alone. Having a toad in a glass tank is no different than having a domesticated dog.

Also how did you train you dog to be obedient? I never demand the toads obediently come hopping when I call their name, nor have I ever punished them. They are free to do as they please with out having to do tricks for their master. BTW 3 dogs is not a pack of dogs. I have more toads than you have dogs, lol.

Having Toads in a glass tank has been proven to double their life. They have everything they need because I did my research. They are very happy.

BTW, these toads are smarter than you.

***I forgot to add that at night time the toads burrow and bask on the side of the tank next to our bed. They love us as we love them.

"BTW 3 dogs is not a pack of dogs. I have more toads than you have dogs, lol."

uhh..good one.

Must have been good because it left you with a kids reply.

Here are some pics of my toads in their happy home.

Edited by moderator. There is NO talk of trade, give aways etc on the nexus forums..as posted in the forum rules.

You should go to the exotic earth exchange site where they have a forum suited for trades etc..

Ok, sorry. Wasn't trying to trade.