I know i will probly end up sounding crazy to most, but whatever. I have not had a good DMT Trip myself, yet, but i have read many reports from many sources. Its natarul to try to come up with an excuse to debunk the possibility of the DMT-Aliens being real, because man likes to think he knows how things operate, comfortable with what he already knows, when in truth no one knows shit other than what they expirence, and as we know two people can wittness the same shit and have diffrent expirences, and diffrent versions of what happend. So the best thing you can really do in my opinion is compare everything in thought to come up with the most intelligent, most logical theory. Excepting it only as a thoery that has room to grow and change when knew things are learned, when new theorys are presented.

This truly amazes me, the DMT-Aliens and the trip compared to abductions, to me this makes alot of the pecies fit together. Let me begin. It explains the UFO phenomena, i'm sure you've seen all the shows. Under water USO's, theorys of bases in the ocean, Bermuda Triangle, Dragons Triangle. UFO's have been a really big thing, it would be hard to believe that some of it wern't true. As far as the DMT-Aliens claiming they gave us some of there DNA, i look towards the human abilities. With so many claims of Physics, telepathy, OBE, Remote Viewing. (RV) One of my favorites because it has been claimed to be real by the CIA in 1995 the document was released, project started at Stanford Research Institute. Even to go as far as the chinese myths of the flying people, and the mexican flying alien humanoids reports. The myths of atlantis and contact with aliens, cave man drawings.

As far as for having a way to explain how exorcisms tend to work with faith of god, with so much belief could come enough physic energy to get rid of the ghost on your own. You think god came down and did it for you, but really it was all you. Ghosts are just wierd, possibly stuck in confusion from dieing, not knowing how to operate in the new existence they were cast into, like stuck in a bad trip, really your fine, but its all on weather you can accept that.

Its also funny, in a case i remeber a person saying the DMT-Aliens told them that they put DMT on earth for us to be able to communicate with them, being that DMT really is every were, and even though it is most illegal(schedule 1) as a chemical, anyone can order the materials that contain it and extraction is easy with a little homework.

The final push i have to let me accept this as truth is the crazy dreams i had when i was around 6, very vivid and the only dreams i remember from that time. I wasn't being abducted and also never thought anything of it until around 18-19, i remeber being in a ship looking through some kind of window, seeing lots of other big ships with a few big bright orange stars in the background, thats all i remember. Anyway, all this and more i probly left out leads me to believe that maybe the DMT-Aliens are real and are telling you the truth when they say Earth is their project.

Every once in a while somebody posts something just like that and so I guess many of us agree there is validity to the alien-dmt link. I sure do.

So you don't sound crazy here at all.

I think it's time modern culture update their idea of what an alien is made of. I hardly reckon it's skin and bones. We all have a relatively agreed on idea about what they look like give or take a few tentacles but when it comes to the composition of their bodies... are they physical like us and communicating from another time dimension, or are they right here right now but not made of the same type of matter and communicating from another space dimension.

Ofcourse i can give nothing other than my personal opion, but from what i see i would have to say that they are the same ones we see flying around our planet...the Grey's or whatever name people gave them. The grey alien i assume would be there physical form, DMT-Alien would be there Multidemensional body, the same as me and you. We have are human physical body, and are astral body.

I found this interesting essay: http://www.newdawnmagazi...he_Eden_Experiment.html

Excerpt (note emphasized range):

SWIM has become very close with the aliens..they show up in dreams now..and EVERY TIME he smokes spice..there is a reason for everything..we may just not know it yet

I believe aliens put the molecule here for us and also taught the shamans to brew ayahuasca. How likely is it that someone just happened to take two plants of like 80.000 and boiled them for 10 hours and then drank the stuff. Have you ever tasted ayahuasca? It tastes horrible.

Very likely indeed, there seems to be no mystery about the birth of aya. Humans since the beginning of humanity are determined to try all the plants of their environment. All the plants, (including different parts of the plants, e.g. roots, stem, leaves, flowers etc) in any doses and almost any route of administration (most commonly oral or smoked). That is how all the commonly used medicinal and poisonous herbs have been discovered. Or did the aliens taught us about these as well?

It is not very unlikely that in the past times where slavery was not totally unheard of to experiment on the slaves on "yet" experimental plants.

Ayahuasca was discovered just by making the decoction out of B.caapi branches. Nothing really more, since it gives visions by itself. Other modifier plants were added during the evolution of aya, and certainly some of them turned out to be some pretty spectacular combination.

This is a more sane explanation than just evoking aliens out of the blue to explain us things. Why aliens? Why not this ultra-technologically advanced race of sloths that live hidden in the Mariana trench?

While I do not discount that we may actually be encountering real alien beings, it is possible but its not necessarily a given that they are real. Its just as likely that they are not real and more figments of our subconscious imaginations. SWIM knows someone who sees the "grey's" as they are commonly called when doing the spice. So that discounts that theory that they grey is some physical manifestation of them. I dunno don't you think its a bit far fetched to even start making that claim? Seriously now.

And also as infib noted its is true that our ancestors did find ways to use plants without so called 'alien' help. Think about curare its an excellent example even more complicated then ayahuasca because its only effective if put directly into the blood, hence why they use arrows. Did aliens teach us to make arrow poisons too? I don't think so.. Our ancestors were good at finding useful plants because they had too. There is absolutely no reason to believe alien beings taught humans how to use plants for their benefit as people did it all the time in the past and still do it today.

I am also very doubtful that the shamans are actually learning how to use plants from the beings they encounter. I think its the other way around, the shaman is teaching himself by taking them and if hes tripping while doing it, hes going to think its the spirits even if its just his own mind. Part of becoming a shaman is to build a very high tolerance to dangerous alkaloids like nicotine etc. Therefore they can screen plants on themselves better with less chance of dieing.

haha, Occam's razor forever and everything!

Very likely!!

Hahahah there are already over 40,000 plant species that have been scientifically classified in the Amazon. So there are over 1.600.000.000 known possible combinations of two plants there and then you have to boil Aya for a whole day for it to work. And the taste. You would need a slave alright to drink that stuff. It's different when you just need to take one plant and try to smoke it. And scientists are still finding new plants there every day or two.

And you call that very likely.

Well I don't.

Still, this is not correct reasoning.

People would first try almost every plant in their surrounding. The number 40,000 tells me nothing. How about trying to think those plants that are sufficiently big to be noticed in the first place? Because a good majority of those 40,000 plants in the list are microscopic plants or not easily noticeable (such as minute grasses and bryophytes).

Both caapi and viridis are fairly big plants, easy to notice (and identify) and I wouldn't be surprised to find that they were among the first 1000 plants to be bioassayed.

Taste is not a problem neither the quantity nor the fact that you have to boil them for 1 day. That's how it goes:

You want to bioassay a plant, say you chose caapi because it also has an interesting trunk. You try a small amount then by increasing amounts you establish that it is not lethal. Then you go for braver bigger amounts. On way is to smoke it, another way is to boil it because chewing the trunk is not the best idea. So you boil 200 g for some time, strain it, concentrate it down because the taste is vile and drink it in one go.

Amazing! you got visions and beta-carboline like effects. This plant is worth for further investigation. After some time it is established that 50g is actually enough for the effect, no need to suffer the taste of 200g. And if boiled for longer the stronger it will get.

Nothing too extraordinary so far. Then, you try this plant in combinations. First with the other psychoactives you may have identified. Some will make it better, some worse. Then with other plants of the jungle. In the case where psychoactivity of viridis alone had not been observed either in humans or animals (e.g. indigenous people could have watched monkeys eating the leaves and going nuts) it would be one of the few thousand candidates-to-be-tried by the people.

And when the do try it, and experience the effects then it is the birth of aya as we mean it.

The whole process of the evolution of ayahuasca is an iterative as well as interactive one and it did take time, maybe a thousand years. But there are no strange odds as to the invention/discovery of ayahuasca. The mathematics of the 40,000 X 40,000 combinations are a bit naive and misleading in this respect.

This peticular razor is known to be used to propagate the likelyhood of all kind of theories.
Simplyfying different models at the same time can be done in such a way that one model seems simpler than another.
Is Char a real medium or is she a con-artist?
Occam's razor is used by those who believe in Char as a medium as well as by those who think she's almost as good an illusionist as derren brown or david copperfield.

In this case; if you realy beleive the aliens exist, then all the procedures the ancient tribes would have to go through to aquire knowledge about these plants, is so far fetched and much more complicated then the theory that says that the aliens (of wich you already believed they exist anyway) simply came down and tought these tribes; if you don't believe in the existence of these aliens (or better, if you don't necessarily believe in them), then you have these plants and you have these tribes and you give them a sufficient amount of time to figure out some realy cool combinations of these plants to put in a brew and there's you explanation. So then, adding these aliens to the thesis is adding an unnessecary extra element.
Although i find the use of occam's razor to be more appropriate in the second case, i have to admit that IF you would take the existance of these aliens for granted as a fact of life, like many of us do, before testing both theories, it is just as aproppriate in the first case.

I agree. But taking the aliens for granted has far more implications that just simply implying that this is a fairly extraordinary hypothesis. Taken that they do exist and they actually taught us the ayahuasca, then many questions arose:

1) why did they do it?
2) why did they choose these specific people and not any other society?
3) what do they want? etc.

Of course, again taking aliens as existent, a possible answer would be something like: we do not know, they are the teachers and we still need to fight our way to the answers. Something very similar to the existence of god.

The problem I am trying to demonstrate is that "aliens" (or "supernatural being/god" ) as a theory is so much waterproof that simply does not qualify as a theory. Their existence has to be falsifiable and able to test it in a rational manner. If you take aliens as an explanation, then you can take aliens as any other explanation. As such, aliens are a belief system.

My somewhat more materialistic proposal is as a matter of fact a theory because one can devise methods of falsifying it, trying to model it, do some further research on other "peculiar" anthropological cases etc etc...

Actually it's not that unlikely.

Ayahuasca primarily is Caapi. Plants containing DMT can be added, but it's not a requirement. Caapi alone produces noticeable effects, because as a MAOI it inhibits the breakdown of endogenous substances. Caapi is mixed with various plants, some containing DMT others not.

Second, DMT may not be very efficient if administered orally, but it works as a snuff for example. That may not be extremely strong, but the effects are noticeable.

So maybe someone took a snuff after drinking Caapi and noticed the strong synergetic effect or DMT (e.g. Chacruna) was added to the Caapi brew along with other entheogenic plants when experimenting and they simply kept what worked.

Yeah, i'm maybe more of a materialist in this sense as well. But to many people the existence of these aliens is simply a matter of fact.
There where discussions on this site about starting a DMT-religion or something.
I would say that there already is a DMT religion that states that there are aliens, that they gave us the DMT molecule to communicate with them and so on.

I think the many ayahuasca recipes are more an indication to how long this tradition goes back. Through the ages the recipe has been further refined, i think. The fact that these recipes are so specific in as well the list of ingredients as well how they're prepared, to me is a sign that the tradition is very, very old, rather then that there must have been aliens involved in the whole thing.

"While I do not discount that we may actually be encountering real alien beings, it is possible but its not necessarily a given that they are real. Its just as likely that they are not real and more figments of our subconscious imaginations. SWIM knows someone who sees the "grey's" as they are commonly called when doing the spice. So that discounts that theory that they grey is some physical manifestation of them. I dunno don't you think its a bit far fetched to even start making that claim? Seriously now."

Not really, people have a physical body and can see themselfs as there physical boddies in other dimensions, or through mind if you assume its imagination, so why would you think it would be different with aliens? What of the possibility that in another dimension if you can create things, you could also change your look, body, or form. Not to mention that it has been proved that things you see in you mind can exist as truth in this world, examples being Remote viewing, OBE. So if things you see in your mind can be declaired real in existence, why would you assume something in your mind that intelligently interacts with you as creative imagination. Even though imagination truly dosent work that way, you can create anything in your imagination other than something that has a mind of its own. What i'm trying to say is, imagine your talking to someone in your mind, all your creation, now try to communicate with the person you created, your going to be on both ends of this interaction because its all you, you create what you say and do as well as what they say and do. They don't intelligently interact with you, unlike what people consider the DMT aliens. Thats why it dosent sound logical that the DMT-Aliens are imagination, because they operate under there control, not yours.

Very likely!!

Hahahah there are already over 40,000 plant species that have been scientifically classified in the Amazon. So there are over 1.600.000.000 known possible combinations of two plants there and then you have to boil Aya for a whole day for it to work. And the taste. You would need a slave alright to drink that stuff. It's different when you just need to take one plant and try to smoke it. And scientists are still finding new plants there every day or two.

And you call that very likely.

Well I don't.
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What does that explain? How it was discovered possibly? That in no way discredits the possibility that aleins could have put the chemical here for us to discover, in truth, how do you know they didn't start all life on this planet, being advanced it would seem likely they would have a good understanding of life and how to create it. Even we can do some amazing things with DNA, and we only understand a very small portion of it, imagine someone who knew all there was to know about DNA, really, they could create any form of life. so again, how could you be so sure your correct? You don't see the possibility?

OBE is still highly controversial.

Many types of people talk to things in their mind all the time. Its called schizophrenia among a number of other mental illness's. People with multiple personalities etc etc. Its very possible that you can have a conversation with a being that you think is another being under the influence of dmt or any psychedelic drug and just have it be your imagination. Theres nothing weird about the claim I am making.

Who sais they operate under their own control? I just can't buy into that without more evidence. Yes when SWIM experiences contact with beings it seems real at the time but a few hours later its just another weird thing that happens when one trips.

I think this alien thing is very controversial and there is not a single shred of evidence that they are real except that people see and communicate with them under the influence of drugs. Yes people can become delusional on drugs and yes DMT is a drug when taken in the doses SWIMMERS consume. Realize that please there are many drugs that make people see/experience things that to the rest of the world are totally not real.


Also you people need to think more how human beings figured out medicinal plants. There are some thousands of plants that are used as medicine worldwide. There are about 200,000 - 300,000 plant species in the world. So everytime a human being discoveres a medicinal plant its a impressive feat but certainly it does not call for aliens. It happened many many many times in human history without aliens! I really think that it is just a very close minded way of looking at how people discover medicinal plants to just say that aliens did it with no rhyme or reason as to why. Are you also going to claim that aliens told people every single medicinal plant in the world? Also its somewhat bordering on crazy to think that aliens told human beings to make ayahuasca...no offense but it really is. Unless you think that there is some weird beings hiding in the shadows of our world secretely controlling everything but that is bordering on insanity and not built upon any evidence.


Also there is no reason to think aliens put human beings or any chemical on this planet. Thats also bordering on absurd, until more evidence comes to light for it. As of now there is none I repeat 0 evidence for alien interference in human affairs, kind of like god zero zero zero evidence. Any intelligence similar to ours would have taken a similar amount of time as us to evolve to this level of intelligence.

This type of talk more then anything makes me worried that the authorities will get more worried about DMT in the future as it really makes people start to sound like lunatics talking to aliens etc etc. Not that I am calling any of you lunatics but really it does sound crazy especially from the view of a non drug using person. Please look at your experiences as objectively as possible lest you run into the possibility of totally deluding yourself and others. Also realize I am not discounting the possibility that maybe there are other beings out there in other dimensions and we are actually communicating with them but until it gets some solid proof its no more real then stories about flying saucers. Which I also don't believe in.

I am not really trying to explain anything neither to prove my theory. I am just doing what scientists are trying to do; trying to give an rational explanation of how things could have been. Make no mistake about that, there is no absolute proof of everything. As far as the invention/discovery of ayahuasca is concerned, it happen sometime in the past. Unless we have a time machine and go back no unequivocal "absolute proof" exists. But given what we know from today we try to imagine a logical series of events that could result in this beverage.

Think about evolution of life forms; it is the exact same thing. Scientists are trying to say how things could have been, given what we know so far. The more we learn the more we can refine this "could have been" model.

On the other hand, the aliens theories are, as I explained before not even theories, Just belief systems and they cannot be argued, proven or disproved. No experiments can be devised to test for the validity of such "theories". In simple words, the alien thingy is closer to beliefs (where everything is permitted) but has nothing to to with science.

Burnt: OBE is still highly controversial.

Remote Viewing isn't. Psychic's are also highly controversial, but police use them to actually solve crimes. So if you want to wait for the rest of the world to catch up, you might as well give up.

Burnt: Many types of people talk to things in their mind all the time. Its called schizophrenia among a number of other mental illness's.

O, so i assume they just fully understand that right, its not controversial that the people they are talking to could be real in some way. They have no way to prove its all in there heads, they can't say its not people talking from another dimension or something unkown.

Burnt : Who says they operate under their own control? I just can't buy into that without more evidence.

That makes me sick, what evidence can i get to see that you operate under your own control?
I guess you'll be waiting a very long time here as well.

Burnt : I think this alien thing is very controversial and there is not a single shred of evidence that they are real except that people see and communicate with them under the influence of drugs. Yes people can become delusional on drugs and yes DMT is a drug when taken in the doses SWIMMERS consume. Realize that please there are many drugs that make people see/experience things that to the rest of the world are totally not real.

No evidence? What world do you live in? I guess someone managed to slip DMT to an entire city? There's evidence everywere, you say there isn't any because science dosen't recognize it. See thats what i think is crazy, with all the reports and countless witnesses, you actually believe that its all bullshit because a scientist dosen't put a stamp of approval on it. I'm sorry, but to me that says you can't think for yourself, if you did you would see something fishy is in the air on this subject. As far as i know UFO sightings usally have nothing to do with drugs.

Burnt : Unless you think that there is some weird beings hiding in the shadows of our world secretely controlling everything but that is bordering on insanity and not built upon any evidence.

Dude, really, thats funny as shit! With all the UFO phenomena. No, there's no evidence of that, but it is very possible(Not saying it IS real). How do you see that as insanity? To see a really good possibility as insanity, sounds like someone dosen't want to believe. I hope you don't consider yourself open minded.

Burnt : Also there is no reason to think aliens put human beings or any chemical on this planet. Thats also bordering on absurd, until more evidence comes to light for it. As of now there is none I repeat 0 evidence for alien interference in human affairs, kind of like god zero zero zero evidence. Any intelligence similar to ours would have taken a similar amount of time as us to evolve to this level of intelligence.

No, theres no reason for you to believe that as a possibility, Because once again, you seem to not even consider things a possibilty until it has that stamp of approval. Do we not conduct experiments? What if we possibly are the experiment? How is that absurd? You don't think other intelligent life forms would think of doing experiments? For one second consider it real, say they are very advanced and started earth and want to stay on the low to not fuck up there results, you would still be thinking the same thing, so how do you know thats not the case. Once again, i'm open to all possibilities, i never stated any of it as something i think is 100% truth, nor am i trying to convince you its truth. I'm just trying to see how you think its absorb to think of these possibilities.

burnt : This type of talk more then anything makes me worried that the authorities will get more worried about DMT in the future as it really makes people start to sound like lunatics talking to aliens etc etc. Not that I am calling any of you lunatics but really it does sound crazy especially from the view of a non drug using person. Please look at your experiences as objectively as possible lest you run into the possibility of totally deluding yourself and others. Also realize I am not discounting the possibility that maybe there are other beings out there in other dimensions and we are actually communicating with them but until it gets some solid proof its no more real then stories about flying saucers. Which I also don't believe in.

So now its insane to discus ideas and views? I really don't recal anyone saying there idea to them was completle solid truth. And by your last statement i see your limited range of thought, if you cannot even accept flying saucers as likely to be truth. Personally i have seen a UFO, but i noticed something else, its actually common for people to (Claim/ for you)see at least one UFO in their lifetime. Many people i know, even some that still don't believe in Aliens. And about DMT, thats real funny also, its a schedule 1 drug, its one of the most illegal substances. Marijuana is illegal, it dosen't make people think crazy, it dosen't cause cancer, its not chemicly addictive, it is way safer than tobacco or alcohol, it is ilegal. See, it dosen't have to be bad to be outlawed, thanx to the people who some how think there thoughts are the only ones that matter, how did it come to them claiming earth as thier own? Shouldn't we all have an equal say in things being that we live here also, or is it about who has the biggest gun.