I would have posted this topic elsewhere, but I am not a full member yet, so here it is.

I've taken up the preparation and use of spice for its drastic potential as a spiritual tool within the last couple months. I've been writing on my blog about it (in safe terms) and recently made a post drawing out the parallels between the extraction process and plant alchemy. (I write a magick blog)

This post caught my mentor's attention and he was so impressed with this experimentation that he wrote a post promoting my blog. Within the same day, he heard from, shall we say, a colleague of his. This communication was passed along to me as a warning.

The first correspondence:
"Please keep an eye on your former student. I have known six people that had the kind of repeated and constant exposure to DMT that he is talking about and ALL of them without except went completely and irrevocably insane. One even castrated himself.

Just a warning that in the near future you are going to be asked to help clean up a big mess in that mans life. "

Second correspondence:

"First let me say that anyone is free to do what you will and I am not going to get embroiled into an argument about whether I think its a good idea or not. I am going to say my peace and that is basically that.

Second is this is not a debate about DMT itself as a tool. I have used it 3 times and it was quite illuminating in its way, and useless in others. If you have had visionary experiences before it, they will be more vivid and engrossing but less relevant to the conscious level of mind. That is not a bad thing BTW, just a thing.

The issue is about how often it is taken and how it is consumed. Chris, you are correct that lots of people have experienced it and have come out the other side as rational and driven people. Back in the day yuppies used to smoke it on wall street and go back to the trading room.

The six people that I knew I am not in regular contact with anymore. One of them is dead. Of the other five I only know how to get in contact with one of them and I am not going to bring it up.

All six took it with the intent of spiritual illumination. I am unsure of specific dosage, set and setting. All of them took it at least once every couple weeks over the course of 6 months to a year or so in an attempt to basically "live" the reality of the space. THis sound disturbingly like what you are attemptting. In all of them dosages increased over time because of tolerance issues. Two of them finally wound up taking the orally active doses mixed with MAOI's which last for hours and hours in real time. These two were by far the most screwed up. One committed suicide.
The problems come when one explores this alone or with others that are doing the same thing. We can talk about how Shaman use it in Peru, which is not as often as some western psychonauts imagine, but there are a few things to remember:
1. They are trained to do it.
2. They do it under the direction of non-tripping people
3. They are in a culture where it is the norm
4. Even in that culture, they are weird. Thats ok because that's their job. Going that route for regular exploration and maintaining ones job as a shift manager at (where I work) or a Project Manager at a corporation is a whole other ball of wax.

You mention that these people probably had predispositions to serious mental issues. Man, we ALL have predispositions to serious mental issues. DMT is POWERFUL, that's the whole reason you are using it. Do you think that your issues cannot be blown apart by it? Do either of you ever experience reality differently enough from other people that they notice? yeah, me too. Being a magician is enough to qualify as that predisposition.

Do either of you have prior substance abuse issues? If so than magnify that warning 100X

Chris, you say to be careful, but when you are headed down the rabbit hole, whatever your perception is seems like the new normal. You cannot be careful with it because it is effecting and changing the very tool that you use to exercise care.

Anyway Chris, I wish you well whatever you decide and will make no further comment upon it unless asked. I respect your ability to guide yourself."

I had my own discussion with him as well as my mentor following this, and they are both fairly concerned about me. It's not that I am exhibiting insanity, but that I may one day, and that I was having a difficult time making a decision based on these factors, when my own knowledge and experience leading up to this point have led me to the conclusion that, used with respect and integrity, this is a safe experience.

I would really like some thoughts especially from seasoned users and posters about this. What is your experience? Have you observed this level of insanity in others? Stories, please.

-Chris

It's hard to know how truthful the "concerned" one is. It sounds like he wasn't able to integrate his experiences with it and he's projecting his fear of it on you. Do you have to be careful with it? Yes. Do I think you should be as scared as this guy leads you to believe? No.

DMT is like a sledgehammer that can crack a nut (and that includes the nut on your shoulders) to smithereens.There will always be a proportion of users for whom the endeavour will be destructive rather than constructive, but with a measured approach, moderation and 'good genetics', the majority of users tend to have no or few lasting adverse effects.The genetics aspect is the biggest unknown here; only by sampling it will the robustness of your genetics be revealed.But no-one is indestructible and this is where moderation and knowing ones personal limits becomes important.

^ Could not say it better then that.
I´ve seen my father go crazy after a couple trips on shrooms, but thats the only one I know. I introduced him to it some years ago, and he fell in love with it, 4 weeks later he had tripped 4 times. 5-6g dried every time. I shouldnt give him so much but he complained about shrooms never worked on him before, and my doses was never less then 5g. 1 week after he´s last trip he smoked som good MJ and then it hit him (he´d been having some weird thoughts but not strong). Started to talk about wizards and witches that was going to kill me if he didnt kill himself. So i got him to a mental clinic and after 1-2months he was back home. But still today he gets "flashbacks".
He didnt listen enough to his mind. The last time he took shroom I remember that he didnt know if he wanted shrooms that night. But he took them anyway because he got bored.

Show the molecule respect and dont overdo it, if you start having weird thoughts it maybe a good idea to stay sober for a while and let the brain rest.

This sounds like completely sensational fear mongering. How does this person know the six went irrevocably insane if he is only in contact with one of them? And 100X!!? That is an outrageous factor, it is beyond sensational.

This persons arguments are not cogent, I would take them with a grain of salt. There are plenty of people out there with strong opinions on subjects they know little about. The dangerous ones try to pass off their opinions as facts.

Sister has been experimenting with DMT in various forms for over six months and can't say that is has negatively affected
her sanity. Its just one more thing she looks forward to. Mind you Sister has approached DMT very cautiously, only slowly increasing her dose to be certain of remaining within her comfort zone (not because of tolerance!). And having found her sweet spot the dose has not increased. Its like anything else, treat it with respect and chances are you will be OK.

^ What this guy said. To me, it isn't worth it to risk your sanity for spiritual enlightenment (whatever the f*&$ that is). Keep in mind that the most famous proponent of DMT died of a brain tumor. And yes, browsing through the Nexus archives will reveal several individuals that display at least a moderate degree of insanity.

Here's some for starters:
https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=15212
https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=19736
https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=21455
https://www.dmt-nexus.me....aspx?g=posts&t=5551


Be careful.

Nobody will be driven insane by DMT that wouldn't be pushed over the edge by some other common occurrence e.g. getting cut off in traffic, fired from a job, spousal divorce etc. The spice may be a catalyst, but certainly not a causative agent.

Your speaking to a community that has several members who use DMT daily. Antrocles used DMT twice a day for over a two year period without losing his sanity.

A large number of Nexus members are addicts in recovery, and have no problem with substance abuse or their sanity.

I don't believe a word of this person's story, to tell the truth.

If DMT is too much for you. Relax. Take a deep breath. Have a cup of water. Look around you. Life is happening. Why allow yourself to be brought down by your own mind when you can just chill and enjoy the moment?

My analysis and recommendation for the OP:

1) Your friends/mentors are idiots.
2) If you feel you need "mentors" to help you decide about using psychedelic drugs, then my advice is NOT to use psychedelic drugs--and perhaps reconsider after you've grown enough to feel confident in doing your own thinking (which is NOT to say that advice and opinions from others is never called for or useful).

Are you alluding to McKenna's brain tumor being directly caused by DMT?

Almost everyone dies of cancer nowadays.

If you are going to deny yourself one of the ultimate experiences you could ever undergo simply because you are afraid of what's already inevitable...

...well that is a shame.

What the heck are you talking about? Where has there ever been a correlation between his death and DMT? Do you research before you start spouting unfounded scare tactics.

I agree. There is absolutely ZERO reason to believe (or even hypothesize) that ANY (or all) psychedelic drugs cause cancer. Zero, nada, zilch.

Sounds like the colleague of his should be working for the DEA, FEAR, FEAR, NO INFORMATION, MORE FEAR! DMT has been used for five millennia as a medcine and a plant teacher. Yes shamens use DMT/aya frequently but also give it to sick, ill and dying people as well and is used as a medcine. Ayahuasca has changed SWIMs life for the better he works a high stress job and SWIM dose Ayahuasca two times a month and he is still very sane.

It's true you should be careful. Very careful.

However, the Nexus itself is a counterpoint to the anecdotes your mentor's colleague brought up. Here, right here, you have hundreds of examples of sane (ha! oh, wait, sorry...), functional DMT users. I vaped DMT a few times a week for a period of 6 months or so, so did a friend of mine, and I take significant amounts of ayahuasca every few weeks.

We ain't crazy yet! Hell, for better or worse, I'm not even dysfunctional by society's standards.

Well, I did not expect such a thorough score of responses, but I appreciate all of you taking the time to read through this and giving me (mostly) intelligent, and thought out input. Now, onto responses...






Global, I tend to agree based on my experience. I am certainly careful with it, it's not something to be tossed around like a party favor.



This is really the point I tried to express to this guy. I agreed that it could be potentially risky, especially in persons predisposed to adverse reaction based on a variety of factors.



This was my response to these warnings as well. When I wrote a well thought out, articulate response, I was cautioned that I sounded like an addict would sound trying to justify my drinking or drug use. I didn't think so at all, because I need not justify anything. It's simply that what this guy was telling me runs completely counter to my research, experience, and experience of people I know both personally and via online communication.



Twice a day for 2 years? Jeebus, that's intense. I can't even imagine. 2-3 times in a week is pushing it, for me (at this stage, I've smoked spice perhaps 20 times, at this rate I'm extracting it way faster than I could possibly smoke it). But I see and appreciate your point nonetheless.

I love that there are fellow addicts in recovery amongst me. I am one, I just celebrated a year on the 9th of this month. It's been a blessing that, in my experience so far, spice has been remarkably safe for me to use, lacks any addictive property I have found in other substances, and has such remarkable, fast, and thorough rate of "recovery" from the experience.

When I learned that Bill Wilson, co founder of AA, was quite the LSD enthusiast well into his sobriety, I was inclined to take a closer look at psychedelics. When I did, dimitri came knocking.



DMT is definitely not too much for me. That wasn't the point in this at all. The point was that this cry of danger ran so contrary to my experience and research and I thought it best to ask an intelligent community of experienced lovers of the spice if this account of DMT use was reflected in any of their experiences or with people they know.

And I agree -- live here in this moment, this moment is all there really is.



Thanks for your input, but both of those scenarios are not the case.

To begin, the one who wrote this message to me is a teacher of Eastern/Buddhist influenced sorcery, and the friend who forwarded the original warning message along to me has been a spiritual and magickal mentor of long standing. He just felt it appropriate to make me aware. He, afterall, was the one who promoted my blog on his page and was very interested in what I was doing in terms of procuring and using the spice in my spiritual and ritual work. His friend, who is one of my teachers, expressed concern to him because he knows how close we are and honestly believes I am making the wrong turn here.

I most certainly do not have or need a "psychedelic mentor", this whole thing has been in my hands from MHRB to white crystalline goodness, this message was a response to what I posted on my blog. It caught his attention.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm very comfortable with it. So that last bit is what I am doing here -- getting advice and opinions from others and seeing if those woeful descriptions rang true with anyone so I could further investigate these dramatic claims.



Now, now. If you are a DMT alarmist, then what, pray tell, are you doing here? This forum seems pretty... Enthusiastic about its properties. I may be new here, but I'm not naive and wouldn't for a second attribute DMT or any psychedelic use to a brain tumor, because that has no basis in reality.

As for the potential of helping manifest greater or lesser degrees of insanity in a user, I'm sure the potential is there in certain cases. But you are spelling something moderate, when the examples I'm asking about are by no means moderate. Castrating oneself? That's pretty extreme, I think.

The point, as I've mentioned above, is that I'd like to see if any experienced users saw any validity in this message of warning, or if it identified with anything they've experienced, seen, or read about.

The overall consensus so far is it's overwhelmingly not the case with most people, as I thought.

You yourself say "Every tool is dangerous when misused. That is no reason not to use tools." In my humble opinion, the use I'm describing is not misuse, abuse, or anything of the sort, but quite a proper use, really.



I made this point exactly and I mostly got the kind of attitude that I was exhibiting addictive behavior of justification and denial.

I don't think so at all. DMT is quite a different subject than, well, anything. It's in a category all its own.




I agree entirely. I have been and continue to be very careful. I'm comfortable using it, but it's not something to be taken lightly by any means. It's powerful and meaningful, and I have to get the genuine, inner feeling that "Today is a possiblity for going to hyperspace", whereas the day before or the day after may be perfectly horrible days for it. I know when I get that cautioned feeling, and I heed it as well.

And I agree, I just joined the Nexus and feel that I have encountered numerous examples of the safe, responsible, and productive use of this sacred substance. My research, experience, and observation runs completely contrary to the nature of this cry of danger I received.

Sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders, I have faith that you will be fine. Good luck to you!

~Neither ayahuasca, nor DMT, are addictive.~


~Ayahuasca contains the potent hallucinogen DMT as well as harmaline, an alkaloid that allows DMT to quickly cross the blood-brain barrier. Unlike the short-lived effects of ingesting DMT in a pure form, ayahuasca intoxication can last up to 10 hours.~

Read more: http://www.livestrong.co...e-effects/#ixzz1PVIxgX9O

TK took more drugs in his lifetime than just DMT. What a hilariously bad response! If even his brain tumor was drug related, you'd never know which drug caused it. I hope you meant that to the populous at large there might be that perception that DMT causes brain tumors, however unfounded in reality, and that you didn't mean that is a real danger. If you did, haaaaaaaaaaaaah. If you didn't, peace love and rainbows.