I want to thank gibran2 for inspiring this thread.

That we are biological machines is a very common opinion in times dominated by popular science. Newtonian physics, sociology, psychology and even studies of psychedelics are generally supporting the view that world is a cold machine of cause and effect. People usually don't understand what it really means and from where it comes, as well to what ends this opinion is used. I'm happy to see that recently mechanical vision of the world is loosing its dominant role. In mass-media I've noticed a shift toward alternatives. Scientific method along with its ongoing mechanisation of the world and disenchantment of reality had laid fundamentals for most oppressive and inhumane regimes of Twentieth Century. I was studying cognitive sciences and from the first classes what I've noticed is that academics are interested in applicable (and profitable) aspects of studying human consciousness. It has alarmed me because science is being put to manipulate people, to enslave them. It's very alarming because we are facing a new threat to peoples liberty. Cognitive sciences are developing very rapidly and a serious, subliminal mind control can become a real possibility. As Noam Chomsky has written:

Students of cognitive sciences are being employed in a wide range of jobs that involve manipulation, mainly in advertisement. Communism has fallen because its propaganda was inefficient, it was obvious and most people where aware what is happening. We are facing a threat on liberty of our minds that will surpass anything that we have encountered before. People are already brainwashed but this will much bigger and, in classical sense, it wouldn't be a dictatorship. No one will force you to do anything but there are tools that are being developed to make you want to believe, do and see what others want. In a pessimistic and esoteric view, its already happening. We are being sealed off from higher dimensions. The worst variant is that we all would be changed into robots. Upbringing of a child would be a process of making him forget his soul and to become a perfect cog in the machine.

It's something really big because it would be a totalitarian world without coercion. There would be no true diversity. But who will care then? I don't believe that such world would be realised, that dream of a perfect order can become true. No one can kill awareness but it's possible that there will be perfect tools how to control that awareness.

I'm really interested in what you think. Just remember that what I've written is a fact with except of the foretelling part.

I’m not sure where you’re going with talk of “propaganda”, but I agree that the predominant view has been a materialistic, mechanistic one.

In the post I made that inspired you to start this thread, I stated that our bodies are machines. I guess I need to clarify what I meant by “machine”. Within the confines of this particular physical realm, I believe that the physical laws are indeed laws. By “physical laws” I don’t mean the laws as written by scientists, but as they actually exist, which we may or may not understand.

Our physical bodies are made up of physical components, which can be subdivided until we reach subatomic particles and, after that, who knows? But even the smallest particles exhibit “lawful” behavior. Quantum mechanics suggests that matter at the quantum level does not behave predictably, but it does always behave lawfully. Since we are a large agglomeration of these “smallest particles”, it follows that we too exhibit “lawful” behavior – we cannot violate the laws of physics. And if behavior or experience seems to violate physical laws, it only means that our understanding of physical laws is incomplete.

Having said all of that, I’ll state, as I have many times before both directly and indirectly, that I’m not a materialist. I tend to believe that the “primacy of consciousness” paradigm or something like it more accurately reflects the nature of things than does the “primacy of matter” paradigm. Consequently, I believe that we are more than our physical bodies – our physical world is a projection or manifestation of consciousness. But this doesn’t change the fact that the physical world behaves according to physical laws. Why would it?

I don’t see how believing that our bodies are “machines” bound by physical laws precludes the belief in other realms of existence and “seals us off from higher dimensions”.

It's blind faith in unproven ideologies that has been responsible for the horrors of the past century, not science.

This anti-science stance is much more dangerous. Look in america where anti-darwinism is being tought on schools and where you have these anti-darwin musea. All meant to brainwash people with blind religious fundamentalism.

Science is based on facts. Discontempt for facts, simply dismissing facts that don't suit our political goals lead to fact-free politic's.

Fact-free politic's is responsible for all of the horror in the world.

Any political movement that turns to fact-free politics will at some point in time become obsolete or lead to military invasions, ethnic cleansing, mass murder or a combination of these things and the eventual denial of them.

Look at bush and blair, berlusconi, putin, milosevic, mubarak, gadhaffi and assad.
All fact-free ideologists.

I agree, that ignorance and contempt for facts can lead to disastrous consequences. But politicians with hidden agendas are just as adept at using facts for nefarious purposes. You suggest that “anti-Darwinism” can lead to horror in the world. This is true.

But wasn’t it a Darwinian “eugenics, master race, survival of the fittest” mentality that led to horrors repeatedly in the world?

Evil people will use whatever is at their disposal to achieve their objectives. If ignorance serves their purpose, then they’ll use ignorance. If twisting of science suits them, then they’ll use science. Evil people don’t care.

If i was as devoted to darwinism as religious fundamentalists are to their belief i would call that blasphemy.
The nazi's used darwinism in a rather unscientific fact-free manner.

Humans are a social species and promoting an anti-social society is definately not in the interest of our species.

The nazi-blended darwinism would maybe aply if we would have been solitary predators like tigers or jaguars, but even then the 'pure race' idea is very unscientific; everybody knows that genetic diversity is good and cross breading leads to healthier populations.

You have proven my theory that this artificial dichotomy of religion and science is widely spread in the society. I know what is happening in the US but this war of both camps is illusory. It's really only about power and BOTH sides use brainwashing.

Both Nazis and Communists used science as a legitimacy of their power. They used both psychological and sociological achievements for manipulation. There aim was POWER and it doesn't matter that they lied in their ideology. It wasn't ideology that mattered. What was scientific was the METHOD of social control. Besides, don't judge how scientific was something that existed 80 years ago. Science has made huge progress during those years.

Luckily, I live in Poland and here there is no such thing as war against Darwin. Don't you think that your harsh reaction to my post are dictated by ideological warfare waged between scientists and theologians? In such war PROPAGANDA is exactly what is being used to MANIPULATE and drive people against each other. I won't accept Darwinians theory just because some Christian fundamentalists oppose it! Evolution is not a fact and we can go deeper into this one but I'm not willing to.

Polytrip, science is based on interpretation of facts more then facts. There is more going on in the inner circles of scientists then you think. I don't mean that they are plotting against the humanity but you know what rules this world... $$$

SSS...it's what drives the politics in any business.
it's not the science that is flawed or agenda-driven, it's the interpretation.

Every human action is agenda-driven, even if deeply unconscious. It's because every human action has consequences. I think that John Zerzan's works are worth mentioning here, especially his "Technology: A short critique of technology and people's attitudes towards it" fits here. So, even if you don't agree with him (like I don't) he still has some valid points worth contemplating. Before continuing discussion I would strongly advise to read this:

http://www.spunk.org/tex...ters/zerzan/sp001184.txt

I think that those sympathising with primal tribes would be delighted to read this one. I'm not as radical as John Zerzan but if someone puts Earth before mankind then Zerzan's critique is very accurate.

I remember my first mushroom and mescaline trips. The science and civilisation always were demonic in my eyes. I was very pro-science atheistic materialist when I took my first psychedelics. Somehow civilisation and its fruits seemed oppressive, insensitive, mechanistic and murderous on my trips. I'm aware that this could be an exaggeration but psychedelics deeply changed my attitude towards science and technology. I've also studied cognitive sciences so I was in direct contact with scientific methods and with scientists in general, so I'm more then aware how scientists and their methods are biased. I suppose that it's already too late and all we can do is to try affecting global politics or wait until mankind's survival instinct overcomes its greed and obsession of control.

Look, I won't even argue that science or physics aren't working, so don't accuse me about that.

The goal of science is to find the truth. Individual scientists may have their shortcomings, but science dictates for instance that assumptions when proven false should be dropped.
Science itself may not be good or bad in the eyes of many, but i find this trait of science a form of honesty that i admire. It is the single most essential element of science.
In that sense science is never disenchanting to me.

Furthermore, civilisation is not just one thing. native tribes also have their civilisation, wich is just as much a civilisation as hours.

I don't agree with many things in this world and with many things about western civilisation. Yet civilisation itself is innevitable in my view.

Considering everything this threat touches there are only a few important things that stick out, the way i see them and that is honesty towards the truth and empathy towards the fellow human being.

Society must in the end be based on empathy between humans and any worldview must be willing to be honest towards itself.

Those demands don't rule out a secular nor a religious or spiritual worldview, or modern or primitive society's.

“Science” is an abstraction – an inanimate concept or thing. Science has no goals. People using the scientific method may or may not have goals. It seems to me that the primary goals of scientists are to concisely describe observations and to accurately predict future phenomena. Some scientists may seek “truth”, others may not.

The scientific method is morally neutral – neither good nor evil. People using the scientific method make moral judgments and act accordingly, for better or worse.

Yet the scientific method exists out of coming up with a hypothesis that could be proven right or wrong by an experiment. And then to conduct such an experiment. I allowed myself the freedom to expres this as 'seeking the truth'.
Science does have a goal and goal this is to come to a better understanding of the field it is occupied with. Any activity that doesn't involve this goal in some way is simply not science but something else like education or information storage. A scientist may teach science, but teaching isn't conducting science. When you're conducting science, you by definition are searching for knowledge you don't yet posses by constructing hypotheses and testing them because that is what science does.
Someone who aplies scientific knowledge to make something isn't practicing science but engineering. Someone who practices science is doing something that will increase his knowledge either in a positive way when the hypothesis is proven right, or a negative way when the opposite is the case so you know you where wrong.
If you know a hypothesis was right or wrong, then you have come closer to the truth.
We all know the finding the truth is an impossibility, but a model on basis of wich you can make accurate predictions is closer to 'true knowledge' than a model that fails this test.
In that sense science has a goal wich is seeking the truth, or rather getting as close to the truth as possible.
When you're no longer trying to come closer to 'true knowledge', you're either applying science in some way instead of practising it, or you've become engaged in pseudo-science.

I think everything in life comes back to balance. To be succinct, I believe that it's necessary that as a global society, we need a healthy balance of spirituality and science, working hand in hand as opposed to against each other.

Actually quite the contrary. There is far far less going on in the 'inner' circle of scientists than you know. As it turns out they are just like almost all other people. They have a wife/husband and kids at home, they get up and commute to work in miserable rush our traffic....they spend their day's working in cubicles and lab spaces...and then they go home for diner and sleep. But grand propaganda they do not have....

Sorry if that burst your bubble, but it's just not reality. Now if you want to talk about CEO's and BOD's of major pharma companies we might have a little thread to stand on, but honestly probably not much. Most of those people are also just a product of their society.

Scientists indeed compete with other proficiencies for being the new gurus in a new age of civilization. Science is based on domination and subconscious will to enslave nature and laws of physics. The progress of science is entangled with power and politics. Zeitgeist Addendum shows how much can be done with scientific knowledge but those that give out subsidies (those that have money) are interested in using science to their own ends. The progress of science is inhibited by profit-making and will to subvert - not to liberate - all living being and forces of nature. Sure, we have gain lots of things but most of world's population don't have access even to basic healthcare or education. No wonder that there are racial prejudices if Latino-Americans, Africans, Aboriginals, less developed, poor, excluded, mentally-ill, deviant, less-to-none productive, old, non-sentient, non-human and many more are discriminated in basic services and rights. Science is a product of civilisation that is based on so many ill attitudes, tendencies and needs. Scientists do differ but during process of education most of them are indoctrinated and most of them that are more open-minded, radical or compassionate are excluded from gaining higher degrees or financial support for their research.

Nonetheless, those all things are just dispersing our attention from the main point of this thread. Media with latest achievements in evolutionary biology, cognitive sciences, neurology, psychology, sociology and some others are, in fact, used to brainwash fellow citizens. If you ever thought that science has liberated us from anything, then you are not aware of anything. We have advanced but at what cost? With proper propaganda even turning our lively Planet into a barren desert can be seen as profitable.

One of the ways that we can resist such ridiculous "achievements" is to develop awareness (not dissimilar from this awareness that is propagated by Buddhists) and to remain aware of the fact that we are deliberately, constantly and very effectively brainwashed. This awareness can give us clarity of mind that will support actions that are needed for survival of human beings that try to live with dignity. If we want to evolve then we need to build consciousness that will encourage brotherhood of humanity and higher ideals instead of profit, mere survival and living in constant fear (of loosing job, not paying debts, destruction of family, war, disease and many more). This is what I mean by being cut off from higher dimensions. We need to bring those ideals from Heavens to Earth. If this propaganda will be successful, we will be manipulated and suppressed (even if it's our will to do so) then those ideals will never come true. As I said, we will be cut off from higher dimensions - Truth, Peace and Love for everyone.

Sorry for idealism but if this seems utopian to you then it only shows that those in power are very good in showing you that world cannot be better. But it can and it will if we will try hard enough!

the consciousness we really should be focusing on is how we're being shammed with the illusion of 'freedom'...which is really freedom of what the powers that be allow us to consume.
science gets twisted like media everyday, to influence public opinion. it's simple: don't buy it.

but love and understanding is a utopian ideal, as is a collective state of metaphysical being... I suggest something more practical: recognize patterns of history repeating itself, use critical-thinking, and refuse to consume mass-produced garbage. don't allow yourself to be lulled into a complacent mindset, completely geared on consumption. I don't love the system, and frankly, I see no reason for you to either.
want to make a difference? do a little research, and make your peers aware about what the gov't and the companies they support are involved with, and take a stand..don't feed them money. this was the beauty of wikileaks, and why it made such an impact.

Here’s an interesting article related to the topic (it’s long, but worth reading).

Same Old New Atheism: On Sam Harris

benzyme, that is definitely a step in the right direction, stop giving our energy to them and their useless consumer based economy, and redirect it into localities, to help create true communities that are self supporting. In other words, stop buying Coke, Pepsi, Mcdonalds, Burger King, T.V., Pharmaceuticals, Alcohol (Large Corporate Alcohol), Cigarettes, and start supporting local farmers, drink water, watch nature, use plant medicine, and make our own alcohol/local breweries. We just need to redirect our awareness and energy. Easier said than done

benzyme, I thought that it would be an interesting topic to share and discuss. I've noticed that many psychonauts have noticed how strongly we are being manipulated. So, few words about new techniques and paradigm of their development seemed interesting. I'm new to this forum and it was something that I wanted to share.

In reality, I no longer care. Most people are content with how things are. Rich are getting richer, deluded are getting more deluded. Future will be less secure both financially and psychologically, and people seem to do nothing to change those things. I'm no longer in the position of revolutionary vanguard and I've ceased to be explicitly anarchistic activist. I have my views but I won't force anyone to anything.

My eyes are wide-open and that is enough for me. We could be living in utopia if most people wanted it but they don't, so I don't care. I'm moving towards personal liberation and I would never force anyone to follow me.

I'm calm, relaxed and happy with my life.

I definitely hear ya.

given the tendency to entropy, i forsee an economic collapse in this country..it's already beginning.
the cost of living has increased dramatically over the past year, yet wages have not increased accordingly. we have something like 14 trillion in debt, and continue to allocate a good portion of tax dollars to :coughcorporatecough: defense spending, while cutting the education budget; but this should come as no surprise, as the US is said to be involved in 4 wars...

if the stock market crashes, merely observe as the people who supposedly defend our freedom, prepare to keep us from from rioting. this happened the last time the market crashed a couple years ago.

With a bit of luck, the world will be spared from further US invasions after the american economy is no longer capable of baring the cost of them.