I can't tell if this topic is tabboo here, as I am fairly new, but what does everyone here think about sythetic psychedelics as tools for introspection, spirituality or just plain recreation?

I tend to side with synthetics over natural drugs (I have not used DMT, although).

Although the type of trip I am looking for depends from trip to trip, for the most part, in order, my favorite synthetic psychedelics are:

2c-e
5-meo-dipt
LSD
2c-t-7
4-aco-dmt
mescaline
psilosybin


I really feel like each drug has its own purpose. Cacti and mushrooms exert an awful lot of relative pain on my stomache, they have uncontrolled doses and it is possible that I am getting a differen't/poisonous substance.

With synthetics, the pain is almost non existant (depends), the dose is controlled and I know what I am using.

I feel like I get a lot more out of synthetic drugs than natural ones from an intospective standpoint, too.

LSD is SWIM prefered entheogen. No sickness as with many others. Its potent so it doesn't mess much with other body systems. It lasts long and its just a beautiful experience (usually )

I don't think there should be any debate whether or not something is synthetic or natural meaning its better or worse for you. They are all chemicals it doesn't matter. What matters is how they effect you. Some synthetics might have more side effects that are unknown but thats normal so do natural chemicals. The point is they are all chemicals it doesn't matter who made it first man or a plant in a lot of cases like DMT for instance is was synthesized before anyone discovered it in nature. Hows that for nature versus synthetic argument?

Sums it up very well.

The only practical difference between "natural" and "synthetic" chemicals comes if you grew the plant source yourself. In that case, the act of tending the being that provides your psychoactive experience would contribute substantially to your set going into the experience.

I think man-made chemicals are not that great as entheogens, and the synthetically made natural ones have no advantage over the botanicals.

For example I think Ayahuasca is a better etheogenic experience that smoking pure DMT.



How would you get poisonous substances? Just cannabis and peppermint/mint for your stomach next time!

Then what about a synthetic mix of harmine, harmaline, and THH that matches good caapi, mixed with an oral dose of synthetic DMT? How does this differ from drinking aya?

I suppose my pervious statement that the only difference comes from growing the botanical is a bit hasty. Of course awareness of the plant entheogens history of traditional use also influences the set of the experience. But if one is aware of the history of ayahuasca and conflates that history with their own consumption of THH/harmine/harmaline/DMT orally, I'm not sure I understand what difference there would be between that and the person consuming ayahuasca.

I know we've had this discussion before Teotz, but I don't recall you articulating very well exactly what makes man-made chemicals "shit as entheogens". As far as I can tell, this is just your personal bias, and of course when taking psychedelics, personal biases will shape the experience. If you believe that man-made chemical entheogens are shit, then tht's how you'll experience them. If you view them as wonderful tools building on the traditional ones (as the 2C-chemicals build on mescaline, or as LSD builds on the ergoline traditions), then you're apt to experience them as great visionary tools.

No purge. It'd be totally different. I bet there would be other difference too, some of which we wouldn't know the mechianics behind.

I used a better choice of words... shit isn't what I meant.

Now I'm confused:



So the purge is something to be avoided, but it's bad that pharmahuasca avoids it? (Though I'm not sure it really does, I'm trying to find info on purging with pharmahuasca)

Edit: This experience from MAPS Vol 12:1 indicates that purging is quite a part of the pharmahuasca experience, as it is with P viridis. Neither are as purge inducing as M hostilis, with all it's stomache-turning tannins, of course. Though M hostilis is also not traditionally added to aya brews as frequently as P viridis.

I'd also like to know whether you have evidence that other (non- set and setting) aspects of the pharmahuasca experience I described would differ from an aya brew, or if that's just baseless speculation to back up your preconcieved notions?

I find that its hard for me to purge with aya(cappi and chali). I really want to, because I have food allergies that have given me an overgrowth of candida albicans in my digestive tract, and its given me irritable bowel syndrom. My natural path put me on acidophillus and told me to flush my system out with 12 glasses of water per day and told me absolutily no caffine. Its gotten bad and gets in the way of even going to work many days and had to drop my college classes this semester. Ive become a healthy eating vegetarian now but I still feel I need that good purge every few weeks for a while.. Gunna try with yopo as well, as the purge with it seems VERY easy to initiate.

So in my case, i would prefer the natural plant additives for my ayahusca simply because I desire the heathy effects of the purge they provide for me. I also just enjoy tending to and working with nature.

On the other hand, I am nat saying that synthetic chemical are not "natural as well". I believe that just as nature created us along with all the other plants and animals, what we create is really a novel extension of nature. Novel from our perspective anyway. Even the machines or computers arise out of the natural world. There is no "outside" of nature. I believe it was terrence who said that we have become the genitalia of the machine!

If you are familiar with rupert sheldrakes theories on morphic resonance, than I guess there is an argument to made there for the use of natural entheogens(if he is correct!). Basically it goes to say that the natural entheogens that have been used throughout history have a larger "morphic field" or field of information built around them from which to draw upon such things as knowledge. Maybe this could account for the concious teacher aspect of the plants which have shamanic lineages...who knows?

SWIMS experience with pharmahuasca or spice with harmine and thh had no nausea at all...he was even able to eat on it...it seemed like every time he ate..the experience intensified..very lovely! he took 50mg of spice fumarate and 100mg of harmine and 50mg of THH...30 minutes after taking the harmine/thh he took the 50mg of spice..and within 20 minutes started experience open and closed eye visuals..and some lovely audio feedback..this peaked for about 3 hours..and the comedown lasted for another 8-10 hours...or longer even...he says he keeps getting these lovely waves that come through every so often..with mild visuals..body buzz..and heightened awareness..

a good way to have a good purge is to snort about 150 mg of spice fumarate..have plenty of water on hand...and this should cause a reallly good purge...it will hurt

and i agree with what fractal says about us not being outside of nature...everything is a part of it..even the things we make

The main difference is that in plants substances often occur along with other substances. Sometimes this is bad news because you don't want the other stuff (like with yopo) but sometimes it's a good thing (like with the vitamins C and E).

The only thing i wonder is, if you have exactly the same always when something is produced in a lab. For instance the ratio between left and right sided molecules. I can imagine that that in a lab it's ussualy 50/50 while in nature there's a preference for left sided molecules. So maybe there could be small differences sometimes.

That depends on whether the molecule has any chiral centers (DMT, for example, does not), and whether the synthesis is stereospecific. For molecules that have chiral centers, plants will almost always produce only one or the other (because of the specificity of their enzymes). Chemists are able to produce either orientation, or a mixture of both (this is known as a racemic mixture). But the bottom line is that the chemist is aware of which form(s) they're producing, and can seperate the isomers in the case that they can only produce a racemic mixture.

Who ever said the purge is something to be avoided?

That's what you silly Syn-heads think! Not me!

All the worry's on these chemists minds!

yes I agree with polytrip about substance occuring along with other substances, especially with cannabis...I really dont like strains that are too high in THC and have almost no cannabidiol. Which is why I think marinol well, sucks. The CBD controlls the effects of the THC, without it THC can give me anxiety, with it though it erradicates the anxiety.

Listen you guys, Quit yo raggin! Swim's done all manner of Chems vs. Au natural from sucking down vials of the finest FAMILY stuff to probly 50 or so buttons in an enema. There is nothing like agood kick in the ASS by this forums namesake!!! I too thought I knew all there was too know!!! D.M.T. is why were here,you will all know this soon enough!! wwwwhat a long strange trip it's been!!!!

My favourite entheogen would be psilocybin. I always make a cup of tea from the shrooms with a little honey and it goes very easy on my stomach. And usually no bodyload at all. Unless I'm very tired or been in a lot of stress before the trip.
And afterwards I always feel very good and alert.

Smoked DMT also works good for me and leaves a nice and good afterglow.

I haven't tried Ayahuasca yet but I'm quite sure that's something for me also. I've had just caapi once and I enjoyed it very much even though I got very nauseous. But not nauseous enough to purge. But the next week I felt very good.

LSD gives me a bit of bodyload and leaves me exhausted afterwards.

I've done 2c-i and it was fine but I was very tired the next day and I didn't feel any psychedelic effects. Just halucinations and got very talkative. That's not what I look for.

Salvia works fine for me and seems to affect me in good ways afterwards. No hangover or tiredness and I always have lot's of crazy dreams the next nights after a strong Saliva trip.

So for me it seems the natural substances work best.
But that's me and we are all different.
I don't really care what you use or how. That's up to you.

Look at the quote of yours I posted. You said that you prefer P viridis over M hostilis because it doesn't cause a purge as often. Is there another way to interpret that statement that I'm missing?

Crakkbakk maybe your religous position on entheogens is fucked up by your favorite "entheogenic" substances-



Eat some botanicals man! Try Ayahuasca! Ayahuasceros love Jesus!


Mimosa makes your freaking throw your guts up! Psychotria gives a more gentle "purge". Mimosa is like rolling in your own puke "O God please make it stop" kind of vomitting, at least it was for me...

As someone whose job it is to study plant chemicals specifically medical ones I must chime in on this one.

A plant is an organism that is loaded with chemicals. Yes chemicals!

I can't see who said it on the list but someone pointed out that pure THC is different then cannabis the plant. You are 100% correct one of the major problems with marinol is that pure THC does cause anxiety. Also eating THC causes it be metabolized to a more potent metabolite. However I will dispute the claim that CBD is the compound responsible for the anti anxiety effect (although an entire drug was devoted to proving this concept it was called sativex, the ratio of THC to CBD they used is totally not found in most normal cannabis varieties and I should add their drug failed most clinical trials). CBD in most cannabis strains (drug type strains the opposite is true for fiber strains) is very minor compared to other cannabinoids. There are also anti anxiety compounds in the essential oil of the plant which may be playing a role. Sorry I had to correct that, there is extensive confusion about this issue even in the scientific literature everyone thinks its THC and CBD but thats only part of the story. Basically cannabis is still under intensive investigation between its pure components and the mixture. No one really knows for sure how its working but there is much progress being made in this area.

But the important thing is they are all chemicals! When you take a plant you are taking a mixture of chemicals, some of these chemicals interact synergistically some of them interact antagonistically. Meaning different mixtures can do all kinds of different things to your body. This is very tough to study and its one reason pharmaceutical companies don't care about herbal drugs is because its tough to study and theres no profit in it (you can't patent etc etc).

So there is sometimes an advantage to taking an herbal drug as opposed to a pure compound because of the beneficial synergistic effects as well as a reduction in certain side effects. There are also disadvantages as certain mixtures of plants or types of plants can kill you!

I want to stress the kill you part as this has happened recently in the news in a number of cases. There was a recent case in south africa where a traditional healer killed his whole family by mixing the wrong plants together!

Lets now turn to ayahuasca. Taking ayahuasca as a mixture does have some advantages especially for people living in the jungle who are constantly under attack by parasites. One of the best ways to get rid of parasites is to puke and shit them out. So no wonder ayahuasca is used for healing. Also the psychological benefits are quite obvious to anyone who has used it and had a positive experience.

However not everyone wants to use this plant mixture for physical healing. Some want to use it for the mental effects and find puking to be very distracting. Therefore it is perfectly fine for someone to use whatever form of these chemicals they want. None is better then the other in every situation
.

Certain mixtures of ayahuasca plants can also kill you. Some shamans like to use tobacco certain doses of nicotine can kill you. Certain shamans like to use plants that contain compounds similar to those found in datura which can kill you. When SWIM did ayahuasca the shaman insisted on snuffing tobacco which unfortunately for SWIM ruined the entire experience as SWIM is very sensitive to nicotine in his body.

There is also another reason these compounds make you puke. Your body doesn't want them in you! Your body has a defense mechanism against these compounds MAOI inhibitors, seretonin receptors in the gut all types of things to defend your brain and body from being harmed. Now we like the effects and in truth its not that harmful so we get past all that puke our guts out and have a great time.

Some people try to invent synthetic drugs that have beneficial effects without some of the dangerous effects of a plant drug. This is a good thing! There are many many many drugs that have been invented that were based on compounds first found in plants that are way safer and more beneficial.

I want to stress this final point. Plants make secondary metabolites (all the drugs you like fall into this category) for two reasons. Communication like to attract insects or other animals or too interact with microscopic organisms etc. The second is defense. There is no other reason for plants to make these compounds as it uses their vital nutrients to do so. Plants do not make these chemicals for human beings. To think that nature set this all up for you the 'human' to benefit is very ignorant and humancentric. Start looking at things from the plants point of view and not your own biased human point of view.

I am sorry for the long post but if you think there natural is better then synthetic in all situations you are being very naive and are not thinking about whats really going on.

That pretty much nailed everything down....

The only difference that may be ascribed to the (admittedly silly) dichotomy of "naturals" and "synthetics" is that "naturals" are more likely to have been used for quite a few centuries which, of course means that any major problems associated with their use would have been identified.

So, compare a user ingesting some Rivea corymbosa seeds, versus ingesting datura versus ingesting Shulgin's latest compound.

Shulgin himself has admitted having some pretty horrible reactions from some of his compounds and I would never thinking him bioassaying any of them in the absence of some medical practitioner.

And that is to say that we still do not know about the long term effects of 2c-e, 5-meo-dipt, LSD, 2c-t-7, 4-aco-dmt etc.

But I doubt they are going to be any worse that all the other really harmful chemicals we are exposed to everyday.